Discourse and our reaction to it

end

Any idea why I can't paste anything into the editor that wasn't copied from elsewhere in Discourse (seriously, I can copy & paste from other Discourse tabs, but if I copy something from a different tab, or from some other program, I can't paste it in here).

Probably a browser related bug. We do not test on Opera, and you are on an old version of Opera, yes? But I agree that the custom undo/redo code in the editor is problematic and needs to be removed with great force.

HardwareGeek

@ender said:

so that I can ^F in it.

^F you.

ender

@codinghorror said:

Probably a browser related bug. We do not test on Opera, and you are on an old version of Opera, yes?

I'm using Opera 12.17, which was released a month ago. Seems to be javascript-related, if I disable it temporarily, I can paste.

Onyx

@ender said:

I'm using Opera 12.17, which was released a month ago. Seems to be javascript-related, if I disable it temporarily, I can paste.

To be fair, 12.17 is a Windows-only update and all it addresses is the heartbleed bug (Linux and Mac versions were not affected, so no updates for them). So it's pretty much still 12.16 which is ancient by today's standards.

HardwareGeek

@codinghorror said:

Probably a browser related bug.

I have the same problem in Chrome 35.0 on Win7. Also, I can't select text and drag it to move it, like I can in any other text field. Dragging unselects it and starts a new selection.

end

@HardwareGeek said:

I can't select text and drag it to move it

Totally different issue than what @ender was talking about. He mentioned copying and pasting into the editor.

I can't repro failure to paste into the editor, from any program / app / other browser window, in Chrome 35.

Here's me pasting in from Wikipedia via ctrl+v

On June 14, 2012, the final version of Opera 12.00 was released.

HardwareGeek

@codinghorror said:

Totally different issue than what @ender was talking about.

I said, "**Also, **I can't..." I know it's a different issue, though I don't know that it's totally different; some applications, at least, implement it as an implicit cut/paste. @codinghorror said:

He mentioned copying and pasting into the editor.

I know he did, and I've experienced it, too. However, it seems to be working for me now, so never mind.

dhromed

@Lee_Ars said:

They hated the non-threaded conversation format

Threaded displays are a barrier to reading.

@abarker said:

As I said before, I was just trying to point out that you had referenced the quote first. Obviously, your reading skills could use some work.

Man, I don't know you and now I don't like you. Good job!

@Onyx said:

did anyone actually look at the code at this point?

It's open source. Of course not.
@codinghorror said:

The idea is that you read the whole topic, ideally, before responding

I do that on other forums. On CS and long threads, I could open the reply form in a new tab. It's the same idea as the docking of DC, but it doesn't consume such a significant quantity of screen space.

In fact, since widescreens are so popular (fucking fuck them all in the fucking arse), why not use that useless space off to the sides. Maybe you could put the docked post form there, instead of letterboxing the letterbox even further.

@codinghorror said:

Putting a number next to people's names means they will do everything they can to increment that number.

Ah, I fondly remember the 10,000th post race I had with morbius. I won, but he's overtaken me now.
I'm also brainstorming about a dynamic badge for people with the most likes (given).

Just trying to sow the seeds of corruption, as one does.

@codinghorror said:

abysmally, mind-rendingly bad

CS's ability to let people post and talk about things is roughly on par with DC, so... what's it all about, really?

dhromed

Hm, multiquote means less people will like my posts, since it's possible that only 1 of my replies will be sexy/hilarious, and people don't want to attach their heart some other shit I said in the same post.

Sorry, just trying to optimize my reputation.

HardwareGeek

@dhromed said:

~~only~~not even 1 of my replies will be sexy/hilarious

FTFY

HardwareGeek

@dhromed said:

In fact, since widescreens are so popular (fucking fuck them all in the fucking arse), why not use that useless space off to the sides. Maybe you could put the docked post form there, instead of letterboxing the letterbox even further.

That assumes that the reader has the window sized to use that width. Heck, maybe it's a valid assumption in most cases. It's not in mine. I have 739 windows layered on top of each other, each the minimum usable size for whatever I'm doing in that window, so as to leave the maximum screen real estate available for the other windows.

Having said that, Discourse does have a rather wide, mostly empty column down the right side of the topic, and maybe the editor could overlay that space. Better yet, let the user drag the editor to whichever edge of the window they like.

end

@dhromed said:

Hm, multiquote means less people will like my posts, since it's possible that only 1 of my replies will be sexy/hilarious, and people don't want to attach their heart some other shit I said in the same post.

Glass half empty.

Glass half full: more of your reply is now hilarious and likely to trigger that all important heart icon click or tap.

@HardwareGeek said:

Discourse does have a rather wide, mostly empty column down the right side of the topic, and maybe the editor could overlay that space. Better yet, let the user drag the editor to whichever edge of the window they like.

The right gutter is used for cross-topic links. Like this one for example.

You can also trigger this linking by clicking "reply as new topic" in the right gutter.

Conceptually it is "moving laterally" from left to right, vs. scrolling down and being pulled by the natural force of gravity.

Onyx

@dhromed said:

Onyx said:
did anyone actually look at the code at this point?

It's open source. Of course not.

Ok, have the as-pedantic-dickweed-proof-as-possible version then:

Did any of the participants in this whole discussion, with enough knowledge of underlaying technologies, take a long enough look at the source code to determine, up to a reasonable level of certainty, if it's possible to control caching policy using a JS plugin without having to mess with core files?

I'm asking because I don't have enough time during the weekend to download the code, set up a dev environment and learn enough Ruby to figure it out myself.

Precise enough for you?

@dhromed said:

I do that on other forums. On CS and long threads, I could open the reply form in a new tab. It's the same idea as the docking of DC, but it doesn't consume such a significant quantity of screen space.

I have to be the devil's advocate once again and point out that there's an arrow-looking icon in the top right of the posting panel which minimizes it without discarding the content.

I do, however, agree that it would be nice to have at least an option of docking it vertically. I'd probably use it that way tbh, trying to find bits I want to quote is pretty fiddly with the current horizontal split on this 1366x768 laptop display.

dhromed

@HardwareGeek said:

That assumes that the reader has the window sized to use that width.

Ah, true.

HardwareGeek

@codinghorror said:

The right gutter is used for cross-topic links.

I know, but it's mostly white space. Those links, if there are any, use just a couple of lines at the top of the cross-linked post. Arguably, less useful information is covered up by putting the editor there than across the bottom.

That said, personally, I'm fine with it where it is. I was just suggesting an option for those who think otherwise.

Edit: Body too similar — not any more. :finger: No finger; sad.

riking

@Onyx said:

Did any of the participants in this whole discussion, with enough knowledge of underlaying technologies, take a long enough look at the source code to determine, up to a reasonable level of certainty, if it's possible to control caching policy using a JS plugin without having to mess with core files?

I've read enough of the source code to say this:

What caching?

The post HTML is 'baked' on the server and shipped to the client. If you modify the baking, you modify what the posts look like. The baking is done in Javascript, because it has to be identical on the client for the instant preview to work.

ben_lubar

@codinghorror said:

What's more important in a conversation, talking.. or listening?

Shouting, obviously.

riking

@ben_lubar said:

What's more important in a conversation, talking.. or listening?

Shouting, obviously.

<Riking> What's more important in a conversation, talking.. or listening?
<Riking> <ben_lubar> Shouting, obviously.
<cindy_k> heh HI!
<md_5> I LIKE TO USE CAPS LOCK ON THE INTERNET
<Riking> YOU KNOW WHAT WOULD BE AWESOME?
<Riking> IF WE HAD A POST COUNT IN IRC.
* DynamicJk has quit (Quit: Web client closed)
<md_5> IT MEANS YOU WILL ACTUALLY LISTEN TO THE POINTS I PRESENT TO YOU
* DynamicJK2 (webchat@SpigotMC-agjaqc.dsl-w.verizon.net) has joined #spigot
* jk-5|gone has quit (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
<Riking> BECAUSE SHOUTOIMG IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN READING
<DynamicJK2> Ive been having this strange issue with bungeecord it laggs the servers out but when i connect with the direct ports the servers are alright, and when connecting with bungee the servers begin to lag how cloud i fix this? *
<libraryaddict> I AM IMPORTANT
<Riking> AND GOOD SPELLING
<Xor> OH GOD WHAT DID I TAB INTO
<Riking> TO REITERATE =- TALKING > LISTENING
<DynamicJK2> anything i can do to fix the bungee lag ?

Everyone continued to ignore DynamicJK2.

flabdablet

@Lorne_Kates said:

I'm working on the assumption that $platform = No Spammers = Fix Google ranking = Ads = $$$

Bad assumption.

flabdablet

@codinghorror said:

Spell checking works fine in the editor for me in IE11, Chrome, and Firefox. We had some reports of users on Linux with broken spell check library browser config though. Are you on Linux by any chance?

Yep. And spelling check works fine everywhere else.

flabdablet

@codinghorror said:

What's more important in a conversation, talking.. or listening?

Physician, heal thyself.

flabdablet

@codinghorror said:

You're asking the iPad to include support for a mouse. I'm open to plenty of requests for improvement, but this one just doesn't make sense.

Why shouldn't it? Mice work better than fingers.

flabdablet

@HardwareGeek said:

Better yet, let the user drag the editor to whichever edge of the window they like.

Better yet, just stop trying to re-invent every fucking browser feature and let the browser do it. Want an editor that's always available? That's the problem separate tabs/windows provided a general solution to, ten years ago.

How often has TDWTF mocked the Inner Platform effect?

M_Adams

@codinghorror said:

What's more important in a conversation, talking.. or listening?

I've been a long time lurker on the "old" forum, and for some reason this snippet just required me to stop being a wall-flower:

If no-one is talking... there isn't anything to listen to, is there?

Listening is a necessary but not a sufficient ingredient to a conversation. Conversations require initiation; which means talking as a necessary, but not sufficient, prerequisite ( talking without someone to listen is not conversation).

A conversation involves talking and active listening, with active use of comprehension skills otherwise it's all "shoulder aliens" and tin-foil hats; which are entertaining (sometimes), but not "conversation".

dhromed

@riking said:

The post HTML is 'baked' on the server and shipped to the client. [...] The baking is done in Javascript,

Uh, that's a contradiction?

dfcowell

@Lorne_Kates said:

Yes, post count is important. It's a feature of the existing product. It may seem trivial to you, but it's something I enjoy seeing, not only on my user profile, but on others too. And other users enjoy it too.

...and guess what - it is in your user profile. I fail to see the problem.

PJH

@codinghorror said:

What's more important in a conversation, talking.. or listening?

On messageboards, the former. Which is why it's being asked for.

Lee_Ars

@dhromed said:

Threaded displays are a barrier to reading.

Personally, I agree with you. But if you want to read a bunch of BoingBoing happy mutants tell you not only how wrong and stupid you are, but also all the ways in which you should literally die and burn in hell, this and this and this are great places to start. There amount of people advocating there for a Disqus- or reddit-style nested thread layout is boggling.

For some similar posts that have fewer fuckwords but more angry-old-man-shakes-fist-at-cloud feels, see here and here (with this thread as a bonus).

I'm an occasional reader of tdwtf and not a regular forum participant, but I do run a small discourse forum and I try to peek at new large deployments as they come up. TDWTF's reaction has been hilarifascinating. (And, frankly, Discourse is becoming better because of the beating tdwft is giving it!)

riking

Nope - the (ruby) server runs the Javascript.

If a plugin adds a post transformation that results in an infinite loop, you will get a 500 error when saving your post (not to mention the infinite loop in your browser).

dkf

@Lee_Ars said:

And, frankly, Discourse is becoming better because of the beating tdwft is giving it!

What can we say? We're good at breaking things; once stuff can withstand our special kind of ~~love~~ attention, it's very robust and probably rather usable as well. (Fortunately, we're also good at putting the pieces back together again or we'd be out of our jobs very quickly.)

skotl

@apapadimoulis said:

I also firmly believe in paying authors

Not including Erik Gern, I hope?!

skotl

I fucking hate this dropping-to-the-end-of-the-page-when-you-reply UI disaster.

I had around 100 odd posts to read on here, wrote a reply, and now I can't find where I was. And because of the infiniscroll bollocks, CTRL-F can't even find some of the text that I was reading most recently.

When you reply IT NEEDS TO LEAVE YOU AT THE SAME PART OF THE BLOODY PAGE!

I'm done with this thread/topic/page/whatever-the-fuck-you-call-it.

riking

You were right here: http://what.thedailywtf.com/t/discourse-and-our-reaction-to-it/344/235

skotl

Cheers.

That's spooky, though - how did you know? Are you on my webcam again?

riking

I just copied the link from this little thing:

skotl

@codinghorror said:

How is post count relevant? That measures talking. Putting a number next to people's names means they will do everything they can to increment that number. What's more important in a conversation, talking.. or listening?

Intellectually, I (we?) understand that. But just because you don't like it doesn't stop many people wanting it, partly for misguided reasons, partly for egotistical reasons, but mainly because the #posts that an author has is a guide to their commitment and input to a forum.

By the way, you continuing to flatten our point of view on this topic with your own opinion is exactly the kind of "Fuck you!!" Lorne is accusing you of. Just because you don't like the idea does not negate the quantity of people who hold an opposing view. Disagree, sure, but don't attempt to trump it.

end

@skotl said:

When you reply IT NEEDS TO LEAVE YOU AT THE SAME PART OF THE BLOODY PAGE!

Has been explained a number of places already, but the idea is that you keep the reply editor up while you are reading, so you don't repeat statements other people made later, miss important bits of the conversation that should have been incorporated into your reply, etcetera.

The editor here does not block reading, saves drafts on the server, you can have one draft per topic, etcetera.

That said, we are going to add a "after posting a reply, don't take me to the last post in the topic" user pref, for people who know what they are doing by opting into that behavior. New users would be beyond confused if they posted and "couldn't see the post they just made."

skotl

@codinghorror said:

Has been explained a number of places already, but the idea is that you keep the reply editor up while you are reading, so you don't repeat statements other people made later, miss important bits of the conversation that should have been incorporated into your reply, etcetera.

I've seen you suggest that a few times, but I'm having difficulty envisaging how that would work. I came to a thread (forget which one) and had ~140 new posts to read through. I suspect that I'm pretty normal in that I read each one, linearly, and decide to respond to a handful when I see them. I'm not going to read the next 120 responses to see whether that covers the point I want to make.
Now, you might think that I should read the next 120 responses, first, but I don't. And I don't think the majority of other people do, either.

Off topic but I wonder whether you're trying to reinvent the way people read and interact with information...? If you are, then I commend you on your bravery, but it seems a little ambitious to think you're going to be able to do that with a forum app.

@codinghorror said:

That said, we are going to add a "after posting a reply, don't take me to the last post in the topic" user pref, for people who know what they are doing by opting into that behavior.

I saw that on another thread after I posted in this one. So, that is definitely going to help but;

@codinghorror said:

New users would be beyond confused if they posted and "couldn't see the post they just made."

Ahhh... I think you've missed something, or I haven't completely explained what I'd like to see (or both).
I mean that, when you hit reply on a post then you get the editor, enter your pearls of wisdom, then your post slides into the browser below the post you were replying to.
So the user definitely gets to see their post, and they are still in the same place on the page/topic/threadyness.

end

That would imply we do threading, which we don't, and it also would wildly misrepresent where all replies actually go -- at the bottom of the topic, like anyone else's replies.

There is a single place to look for new posts, a single point of new incoming conversation, not a thousand-headed hydra of conversation where replies can come at any place in the "tree", at any time, with no warning, and usually with tons of duplication, because who can (or even wants to) follow a dozen different conversational branches?

But I think for people who know what they are signing up for, a user preference option to not move to the bottom of the topic after posting is OK.

sam

One thing though is that we should update the "reply" counter for the post in the "don't slide down to bottom" mode. (so at least they will see: 1 reply)

end

That would add complexity, if the post also quotes 6 other posts, will you update the reply counter in those cases too?

We don't do this right now for replies, don't think a lot of scope creep is helpful for what should be a simple advanced user pref, users who opt in to this should know what they are signing up for.

oesor

@codinghorror said:

But I think for people who know what they are signing up for, a user preference option to not move to the bottom of the topic after posting is OK.

Because using the existing reply flyout and just popping the submitted reply up in that and leaving the replier in the same damn place on the page would be just too unintuitive now would it?

error

Use one of those damn toaster popups you guys love with a down arrow icon to jump to your new post.

oesor

Or that, yes.

sam

I thought you wanted less toasters not more toasters :)

The reason we do this is that we don't want users to think "what the fuck just happened to my reply and where is it?"

The advanced setting should solve your issue so I don't see the big drama, the need mainly pops up on mega-topics, which in most Discourses out there are quite rare.

boomzilla

@sam said:

I thought you wanted less toasters not more toasters

I like toast. Blakeyrat most certainly doesn't speak for me (and I'm certain he doesn't presume that he does).

lushr

There are three features that I would very much like to see.

The first is arbitrary jump to, using a GUI element. The obvious way to do this is by letting you type into the n/x post count box, as it's quite intuitive to click on a number and type the new value into it. This is somewhat already implemented in the URL.

http://what.thedailywtf.com/t/discourse-and-our-reaction-to-it/344/346

If you change 346 to n, you end up at post n. This also gives you the ability to do the aforementioned jump to 20% down, it just means that you manually have to multiply by 8/10 and mangle the URL.

The second feature is preview in searches. Right now, if I search for "test", I see
search

This isn't anything like enough context to actually evaluate if a match is correct, and furthermore, it isn't styled, as it displays markdown code, though it isn't shown in this screenshot. Clicking on successive links doesn't work well either, as the load time for each thread adds substantially to the overall time spent waiting.

What would be nice is two search options. One, the one you have already, that would do a global search and displays its results as a "real" thread. The second would be the one that you capture ctrl-F for, which displays results only within the current thread by jumping to the relevant post, and preloading the matched posts.

The third feature that I would like to see is user-settable cache lookahead. My internet connection is spotty, and I would like to be able to save a thread to look at later. In a more traditional setting, this can be accomplished with 500-count pages combined with browser tabs, but I can't do this here. It would be very nice to be able to have a button that would cache the current thread in local storage so that I could go and read it in, say, an airplane.