US DMV WTF
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@morbiuswilters said:
@_moz said:I'll take that as a "yes", then.
Maybe I just like killing children.
I'm prepared to take that risk. And I'm mildly disappointed to see that you don't appear to have any difficulty in posting at the moment.
@morbiuswilters said:No methods, but a person not willing to obtain a license is the type of person who will most likely drive less than carefully and will find themselves pulled over one day.
It must be good to live somewhere where drivers who are banned for drinking and driving all either stop driving or stop caring about whether they attract police attention.
@morbiuswilters said:@_moz said:
Policemen are usually pretty good at working out when people are lying to them. I don't understand why you expect this to be foolproof, though. As I've said, the police like identity cards.
Now I'm baffled. My point was that requiring a license to drive but not requiring it to be presented when pulled over is stupid. You have no additional freedom. When I speak of the freedom to be without government-issued ID, I don't mean free from the burden of carrying ID (which is obviously minimal) but the authority which a government must assert to force everyone to be identified and traceable. If a license is a requirement to drive not requiring it to be produced when pulled over only makes it a less efficient tool for detecting irresponsible drivers. This means the burden on law-abiding citizens is greater. Thus is the often counter-intuitive nature of freedom.
While there may be an illuminating discussing to be had on whether the roads would be better for the individual to have freedom or for the government official to have it, it's not the most important consideration for a government confronting the issue.
People here have only been forced to carry identification documents with them in wartime, so they would strongly resist a move to reintroduce them now however trivial a foreigner might feel the cost to be.
A government which desperately wanted to force this through could, I suppose, try to scare people into in. "There would be fewer road deaths" isn't going to cut it, though.
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@_moz said:
It must be good to live somewhere where drivers who are banned for drinking and driving all either stop driving or stop caring about whether they attract police attention.
This still happens, unfortunately, but thankfully the penalties for such reckless behavior are becoming more severe. A person in jail can't drink and drive.
@_moz said:
While there may be an illuminating discussing to be had on whether the roads would be better for the individual to have freedom or for the government official to have it, it's not the most important consideration for a government confronting the issue.
People here have only been forced to carry identification documents with them in wartime, so they would strongly resist a move to reintroduce them now however trivial a foreigner might feel the cost to be.
A government which desperately wanted to force this through could, I suppose, try to scare people into in. "There would be fewer road deaths" isn't going to cut it, though.You still miss the point that there is no additional freedom. You are still required to have a license. You are only free from the "burden" of carrying it which is trivial. From a freedom aspect, both outcomes are equally limiting but not requiring the documents to be producable is just inefficient and silly. What's more, you aren't required to carry the ID unless you are driving. This isn't a "show us your papers" type of situation, but simply a requirement that you be qualified to drive before you do so. The same way it is in your country. The difference is that requiring a driving qualification is useless if there is no proof at the time of driving that the driver possesses it. By not requiring the ID to be present, your country is (rationally) restricting a freedom by requiring the qualification but making that restriction virtually worthless by having no means to actually validate it. That is all I'm going to say on the subject.
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@morbiuswilters said:
@_moz said:
It must be good to live somewhere where drivers who are banned for drinking and driving all either stop driving or stop caring about whether they attract police attention.
This still happens, unfortunately, but thankfully the penalties for such reckless behavior are becoming more severe. A person in jail can't drink and drive.
And you would allow someone like that to drive out of the prison gates? Odd.
@morbiuswilters said:@_moz said:
Sorry, I dealt with your "point" in the bit quoted above, by explaining why the degree of truth in your claim is irrelevant to the future of my country and yours. If you think it does matter, though, I'd be happy to find out why.While there may be an illuminating discussing to be had on whether the roads would be better for the individual to have freedom or for the government official to have it, it's not the most important consideration for a government confronting the issue.
People here have only been forced to carry identification documents with them in wartime, so they would strongly resist a move to reintroduce them now however trivial a foreigner might feel the cost to be.
A government which desperately wanted to force this through could, I suppose, try to scare people into in. "There would be fewer road deaths" isn't going to cut it, though.
You still miss the point that there is no additional freedom.
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@_moz said:
And you would allow someone like that to drive out of the prison gates? Odd.
What? Who said that? Nobody said that. Stop seeing things that aren't there.
@_moz said:
Sorry, I dealt with your "point" in the bit quoted above, by explaining why the degree of truth in your claim is irrelevant to the future of my country and yours. If you think it does matter, though, I'd be happy to find out why.
No, you didn't. You haven't confronted it at all. There is no additional freedom because you are still required to have the documents, just not with you, which makes the documents almost useless. I win. Give it up. Stop trying to argue the unarguable.
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@morbiuswilters said:
@_moz said:And you would allow someone like that to drive out of the prison gates? Odd.
What? Who said that? Nobody said that. Stop seeing things that aren't there.
Sorry, I'm just trying to find out what you mean based solely on what you type. If you ban such people from driving, you would need something to deter them from driving. If the police only stop people who drive badly, this won't deter anyone without a license who feels that he drives well. If you do something completely different which you have yet to mention, anything could happen.
@morbiuswilters said:@_moz said:
Sorry, I dealt with your "point" in the bit quoted above, by explaining why the degree of truth in your claim is irrelevant to the future of my country and yours. If you think it does matter, though, I'd be happy to find out why.
No, you didn't. You haven't confronted it at all.
What more do you want me to do? You're happy carrying an identity card around. I'm happy leaving all of mine in a drawer. Both are clealy workable systems, and ones which are well accepted in their respective countries.
It may be the case that one or the other would work better in a particular society, but there doesn't appear to be a society we are both familiar enough with to discuss this productively.
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What the heck does the employer have to do with getting a driver's license? What if you're unemployed, or independently wealthy?
A rich friend of mine used to be asked for his "work phone number" to write checks at the grocery store. He would tell them "I'm retired". I urged him to tell them "I don't work; I don't have to" in a supercilious manner instead, but he was too gracious for that.
