Thanks for the... homework?



  • @skippy said:

    Sadly, there is a lot of truth to this.  I know Canada is really bad for this (not sure about USA), where you're lucky to get half of the student loan amount you ask for.  And if your parents have jobs, they assume your parents will pay for your education and just turn you down for the loans completely.  Doesn't matter if your parents are going to help pay or not... somehow that's irrelevant.

     

    Yes I can see how it can be really hard to finance college education if you don't have a daddy with a lot of money (I went through that). but what made me go WTF was this:

    @bstorer said:

    ...you'll never have the proper education to amount to anything.

     No education = not amounting to anything?????



  • @AssimilatedByBorg said:

    False splitting of hairs.  That was my implication, and exactly why I emphasized "postings require" rather than "jobs require".
     

    Perhaps if you had a college degree you would understand the difference between our two posts?



  • @WeatherGod said:

    Yeah, probably so, given the number of EE people I have met who believe that Matlab is an operating system, and that .mat files are a universal data format... **ducks**
     

    Yeah, I would totally expect an EE to know all about computer software...



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    @bstorer said:

    Sure, but not everybody can "stick with something for 4 years".
     

    Those people are worthless then. A degree wont help them not be worthless.

     

    Can't speak for anyone else here, but for me, you play the percentages.  While it is true that there are some VERY talented people who don't have a degree you have a better CHANCE of finding a qualified person by looking for degrees.

    I have no DOUBT that you make more money than me MPS, and haven't read many technical conversations of yours, but would assume you're probably more knowledgable than me.  But if I was talking to a group of Jr high or HS kids I would still recommend that any of them that want to get into development go to school.  (I would recommend either EE or CompE, but that's just me.)  Knowing that 1) The percentage of people who can skip college and not get stuck in a dead-end job is small enough that maybe 40 people in an a suburan HS could get away with it and 2) Those who could pull it off, probably already know they can and so would ignore the exhortation.

    College != success, but it is usually a better indicator.  Just like the stock market, prior results do not guarentee future success.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    The fact is, most software developers have degrees and this is frequently used as a benchmark for their abilities.  Developers without degrees are less common and have to do a bit more to prove themselves.  However, if they stay in the field for a significant period of time then it stands to reason that they have been more thoroughly scrutinized than someone with a degree since faking it would be a lot harder with no credentials at all.  This means that a developer with no degree and a solid, 5 year employment history is more likely to have succeeded through accomplishment than one with a degree, statistically speaking.
    Nonsense. You can't ignore those that don't manage a solid, 5 year employment history. It's easy to say, "the good developers are really good developers." But we're talking about the whole lot of 'em.
    @morbiuswilters said:
    Companies that take risks are more likely to have rapidly growing financials which will trickle down to the employees.
    Only when those companies take risks that pan out.



  • @fatdog said:

     No education = not amounting to anything?????
     

    Dont forget, most people that feel education is necessary to be successful are that way because they are useless.

    They cannot imagine someone being intelligent and talented enough to not need to spend 4 years sitting in lectures just to write a program.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    @WeatherGod said:

    Yeah, probably so, given the number of EE people I have met who believe that Matlab is an operating system, and that .mat files are a universal data format... **ducks**
     

    Yeah, I would totally expect an EE to know all about computer software...

     

    EEs are a weird breed. My roomate got into EE because he wanted to do automation and robotics.  However, you couldn't hardly force him to get on a computer.  The whole time I wondered how he would program his PLCs or robots.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    They cannot imagine someone being intelligent and talented enough to not need to spend 4 years sitting in lectures just to write a program.
     

    Have no problem with those people, have problem with the people who are too stupid to see that they are not too intelligent and too talented for college.  And, from my experience, those are more common.



  • @bstorer said:

    Nonsense. You can't ignore those that don't manage a solid, 5 year employment history. It's easy to say, "the good developers are really good developers." But we're talking about the whole lot of 'em.

    True, but the bad developers who do not have degrees are more likely to change careers.  Bad developers with degrees are more likely to be able to string people along.  Also, they already have a significant investment in CS that they cannot walk away from.

     

    @bstorer said:

    Only when those companies take risks that pan out.

    No shit, but statistically speaking risks end up being profitable.  The problem is knowing which risks will work out and which won't.  However, when you look at all risk-takers it's clear that they do better than the non-risk-takers.



  • @bstorer said:

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:
    I would certainly hope the 'capability of sticking with something for 4 years' is just something you would expect from an employee... I mean... WTF?
    Sure, but not everybody can "stick with something for 4 years". If you get a degree, you have empirical evidence that you can.
     

     How do you explain some idiot like SpectateSwamp?  He probably went to college, yet he's the biggest moron on the face of the earth.



  • @taylonr said:

    And, from my experience, those are more common.
     

    Really? I think you are full of shit.

    I think it is far more prevalent to have morons who think they are intelligent, and go to college and are still stupid losers who can't figure anything out for themselves.



  • @taylonr said:

    While it is true that there are some VERY talented people who don't have a degree you have a better CHANCE of finding a qualified person by looking for degrees.

    @taylonr said:

    College != success, but it is usually a better indicator.
     

    Read my above post.  Not only is there no proof that a developer with a degree will be better or make more money, but the opposite is more likely to be true given a fundamental understanding of economics and human behavior.



  • @TheDude said:

    yet he's the biggest moron on the face of the earth.
     

    Actually, he is The Stupidest Man on Earth.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    Filed under: College elitism.

    You're ready and willing to attribute things to a college elitism, but you won't acknowledge your own obvious inferiority complex? Fine, I'll do it for you: you feel threatened by people with college degrees because it's something you couldn't accomplish. To make yourself feel better, you then justify your lack of a college degree by assuming that a college degree can't teach you anything.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    No shit, but statistically speaking risks end up being profitable.  The problem is knowing which risks will work out and which won't.  However, when you look at all risk-takers it's clear that they do better than the non-risk-takers.
    Citation needed. But even if we accept that as fact, that doesn't make hiring developers without college degrees a risk. If it risk it is a risk because it fails often enough not to be a sure thing. How does that support your argument at all?



  • @TheDude said:

     How do you explain some idiot like SpectateSwamp?  He probably went to college, yet he's the biggest moron on the face of the earth.
    No he didn't. He has an 8th(9th?)-grade education, "all anybody needs".



  • @bstorer said:

    you feel threatened by people with college degrees because it's something you couldn't accomplish. To make yourself feel better, you then justify your lack of a college degree by assuming that a college degree can't teach you anything.
     

    Um no, I just do like I always do and when I smell bullshit (like skippy's post, and your posts) I call it out.

    If you guys were actually right about something, you might have a point.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    They cannot imagine someone being intelligent and talented enough to not need to spend 4 years sitting in lectures just to write a program.

    As an aside, I sometimes wonder what is it about the programming field that is different from most other fields out there with regards to needing a degree to be successful in the field. In meteorology, you can't get anywhere without at least a higher-level education (or specialized training).  Even if you were a really intelligent and dedicated person, you still can't get anywhere without several years of classes and/or training. I point out training because I know of several very successful meteorologists who got their start in the Air Force, but they spent a few years in training to learn what is needed to be a good forecaster.

    Why is the computer field different? 



  • @bstorer said:

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:
    Filed under: College elitism.
    You're ready and willing to attribute things to a college elitism, but you won't acknowledge your own obvious inferiority complex? Fine, I'll do it for you: you feel threatened by people with college degrees because it's something you couldn't accomplish. To make yourself feel better, you then justify your lack of a college degree by assuming that a college degree can't teach you anything.
     

    College can't teach you anything.. no one can teach you anything, but college, books, other people (teachers) can facilitate the road for you to learn and comprehend.. So having a college degree only means that you have a college degree.. nothing more nothing less..

    I have three college degrees, (one full 5 year career, and two 2 year ones)... and currently make a living out of something I learned by myself, with no formal education whatsoever... 

    I 'm not saying college is a bad thing.. but believing that college is the only way, it's ellitist and sad. Specially in a fast changing field like IT and computers.. formal education simply cannot keep the pace.. so good developers are not good because they went to college, but because they learned and keep learning.. 



  • @WeatherGod said:

    Why is the computer field different? 
     

    Perhaps because it is hard for people to have doppler radar to play with at home and learn on?



  • In before ammoQ

    Has there ever been any locked thread that MPS didn't post in?



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    Um no, I just do like I always do and when I smell bullshit (like skippy's post, and your posts) I call it out.
    It only seems like bullshit to you because you're wrong. I know that's not something you like to accept, so you just go ahead and flame me for this post, too. I wouldn't want to get in the way of your confirmation bias.
    @MasterPlanSoftware said:
    If you guys were actually right about something, you might have a point.
    You wouldn't understand my point if it sat on your face and wiggled.



  • Wow, this got out of hand fast.

    I guess I could comment on the degree/experience thing, though.  I do not have a college degree.  I have a successful job and have worked in software going on 7 years now.  I've only been turned down for a job once.  I think that this is because, while I do not have a degree, I do have a real interest in computer science.  The degreed programmer in the cube next door has a "Java: How to Program" (3rd edition, from 1999)on their desk, and will never visit TheDailyWTF.

    I'm an academic who realized he had no need for academia.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    @WeatherGod said:

    Why is the computer field different? 
     

    Perhaps because it is hard for people to have doppler radar to play with at home and learn on?

    All radar data (heck, all weather data) collected by the NWS is free and available to use.  So, that isn't a limiting factor.  BTW, having a doppler radar to play with is reserved for only a small number of research groups, and they are dominated by EE people (I happen to be in such a group).  Also, there is much, much, much more to meteorology than the radar...

    PROTIP: More goes on in the atmosphere than just precipitation... 



  • @Faxmachinen said:

    Has there ever been any locked thread that MPS didn't post in?

    FTFY



  • @WeatherGod said:

    Why is the computer field different? 
     

    Because everyone has a nephew or neighbor or brother's-girl-friend's-father's-first-wife's-cousin who "knows computers."  Making it easy for managers who are ignorant of IT to hire any old dufus.

    Why do you need some specialty to set up WANs when everyone from the receptionist to the senior engineer use computer's every day?  It's not like he'll be designing a bridge that needs complex static-analysis on it, or fault-force testing, he just needs to plug in some cables and download some programs.

    I think it also has to do with how IT has been defined.  A company I interned at in '95-96 had an IT department whose sole job was to make sure PCs had the OS and Office installed, and manage the routers and switches.  Today, I work for a similar sized company in the IT deparmtment.  We have 7 employees (12 by year end) of which only 1 person has the job to manage PCs and servers.  The rest of us are writing software.  So there is a wide variety of what it means to be in the "computer field."  

     



  • @bstorer said:

    I wouldn't want to get in the way of your confirmation bias.
     

    Would be awesome if you used the term correctly, preppy.

    @bstorer said:

    You wouldn't understand my point if it sat on your face and wiggled.

    Maturity 101 wasn't your best subject huh?



  • @WeatherGod said:

    @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    @WeatherGod said:

    Why is the computer field different? 
     

    Perhaps because it is hard for people to have doppler radar to play with at home and learn on?

    All radar data (heck, all weather data) collected by the NWS is free and available to use.  So, that isn't a limiting factor.  BTW, having a doppler radar to play with is reserved for only a small number of research groups, and they are dominated by EE people (I happen to be in such a group).  Also, there is much, much, much more to meteorology than the radar...

    PROTIP: More goes on in the atmosphere than just precipitation... 

     

     

    I thought all it took to be a meterologist was to be a young, attractive blond who looked good on TV.

    There's more to it than that?

     



  • @djork said:

    I'm an academic who realized he had no need for academia.
     

    Excellent way to summarize, thank you.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    I think it is far more prevalent to have morons who think they are intelligent, and go to college and are still stupid losers who can't figure anything out for themselves.
     

    This is really a reply to this entire thread more than one post in particular, but I quoted MPS for truth (how's that for change?)

    I realize that this is purely empirical evidence, but I'll post it anyway. I'm fairly new in the field and did not finish college, due to financials -- my mother's company went through a rough patch and stopped paying for it. I wiggled my way into the field and have proven myself to the point where I no longer "need" the education to get a job. It helps that I'm well versed in a niche field and you can't pick up Random Coder to take my place right off the bat. I am considering going back now that I can pay for it myself, so I don't consider it useless, but I also don't think it's the be-all-end-all.

    From what I've seen, college makes good programmers better, at least if they don't have years of real-world experience. It's far too easy, though, to get a degree and come out of there knowing absolutely nothing. The worst programmer I've seen had a masters degree. She couldn't figure out how to make her Java app run in the browser. All she knew was that it ran just fine on her computer, but gave security errors in the browser. This took her several weeks to figure out. It was also horrible code, after she left and it got dumped on my lap. Especially in my first job, where the management was so desperate for cheap coders that they would gladly hire someone without a degree (ie, me), I saw quite a few GOOD developers without a degree. The best developer I've known DID have a degree, but he went there to learn more about a field he was already fairly proficient in, not because "zOMG there's money in them computers!"

    It takes a mindset and a college environment seems like it is a good option for learning certain aspects of the field at a quicker pace than you would in real life. But you have to have what it takes to become a developer before you start. You can't take a random person from the masses, put them through the CS department and expect anything but crap. They're far too eager to let crap graduate from what I've seen.

    Oh, and for the record, it most definitely is possible to learn all about big-O notation outside of college. It's one of the first things I learned after deciding that I really did want to do this for a career. And I've met good programmers that didn't know the terminology of big-O, but could still look at an algorithm and say things like "four nested loops?! you could do it this way and loop over things much less!" While that phrasing doesn't belong in CS book, it's the same thing, really.



  • @Faxmachinen said:

    Has there ever been any locked thread that MPS didn't post in?
    You troll ass motherfucker.  Reported.



  • @belgariontheking said:

    You troll ass motherfucker.  Reported.
     

    No shit, same here.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    Perhaps if you had a college degree you would understand the difference between our two posts?

    Nice assumption.  Too bad it's false.

    Perhaps if you had two neurons to rub together (clearly another false assumption), you'd see that I was agreeing with you that job postings merely say (claim, believe, have a peculiar faith in, etc) that they require a degree.



  • @AssimilatedByBorg said:

    you'd see that I was agreeing with you

    Perhaps you should learn to communicate.



  • @belgariontheking said:

    You troll ass motherfucker.  Reported.

    I wasn't trying to stir a flame, actually. I just don't feel like giving any on-topic input when the first reply I can expect is MPS telling me I've made the stupidest post yet.

    You do have a point though, I should probably use the "report post" link more frequently instead of making stupid comments.



  • @Faxmachinen said:

    I wasn't trying to stir a flame, actually. I just don't feel like giving any on-topic input when the first reply I can expect is MPS telling me I've made the stupidest post yet.

    Saying someone had a stupid post is not trollish.  Calling a user out by name is.  You know the difference.  I am saying nothing else on this topic because I don't want to engage in any more meta-discussion. 



  • @bstorer said:

    People without college degrees lack the proper mindset for good development. They haven't been taught the theory, just the practice, which makes them little more than parrots. They might know what do do, but they don't know why it's the right way.
    I've worked with several people with CS degrees who meet that description.

    Not everyone who has "the proper mindset" developed it in an academic context.  And not everyone who managed to earn a degree came out of it with "the proper mindset". 



  • Oh lord this thread got long. Might as well add my 2 cents.

    I'm going to add to this and say that a lot of CS people I know don't deserve their degrees. The whole point of a certifiable institution is to have a certain amount of faith in their issued degrees, and it's sad (to say the least) that it isn't always the case. The university I graduated from almost lost their CS certification a year or so ago, and that doesn't surprise me. I'm not saying I'm the smartest programmer in the world, but I think there are a lot of things you learn in a lecture that isn't necessarily covered in real life experience.

    Also, if you're going to completely shun the idea that you'd rather go out and get a job rather than spend a few years in school getting a degree/certificate/diploma/etc, you'd better be prepared to work from the ground up, because not a lot of employers I know would look twice at your resume if your education doesn't go past high school.

    "Mindset" is something that belongs to the person, I find; it's something that depends on the person, not on which path they took for their learning. There are a lot of kids in CS that shouldn't be, because they don't understand or have the sort of mindset a developer would. Then again, there are a lot of old-schoolers who are really up to date on software dev methods, and they were almost entirely self-taught.



  • @Faxmachinen said:

    @belgariontheking said:

    You troll ass motherfucker.  Reported.

    I wasn't trying to stir a flame, actually. I just don't feel like giving any on-topic input when the first reply I can expect is MPS telling me I've made the stupidest post yet.

    You do have a point though, I should probably use the "report post" link more frequently instead of making stupid comments.

     

    If you weren't trolling, then WTF were you trying to do?

     



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    @skippy said:

    When you say developers, I assume that means they already have a degree in Computer Science, Engineering, or some other related post-secondary Science degree.
     

    Why? Since when is a degree required to be a developer?

     

    Its just like how you need a diploma to be a designer or an artist! 



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    @skippy said:

    Sadly, there is a lot of truth to this.  I know Canada is really bad for this (not sure about USA), where you're lucky to get half of the student loan amount you ask for.  And if your parents have jobs, they assume your parents will pay for your education and just turn you down for the loans completely.  Doesn't matter if your parents are going to help pay or not... somehow that's irrelevant.
     

    Maybe you should move to a real country then. Impoverished nations have issues like these, real ones don't.

    That's not true anyway.  There's a specific very lenient loan called OSAP (Ontario only) that does do this - they provide or deny aid depending largely on family income, regardless of whether or not said parents actually contribute, for some ridiculously long period like until you're 25 or have been out of high school for more than 5 years.  But there are several other ways of obtaining loans and funds here, and almost every university is happy to give bursaries or other financial aid to students who can prove that they're, uh, good students.


    Regarding what a degree does or doesn't prove, I'll just say that a degree from a well-reputed university is great for professional image, and as shallow as that may sound, image does matter.  Most of our lives will be spent dealing with the shallow and fickle, and even though I graduated several years ago, there are still several people in important positions who are suddenly interested in what I have to say when they hear that I have an engineering degree from <institution_name>.  I do not personally conduct myself in that way, but it's an incredibly useful tool to have when dealing with the people who do.  If I'm dealing with autodidacts who don't like college boys, I simply don't bring that into the dialogue.

    As morbiuswilters pointed out in a post above, people without degrees can be just as capable if not more so than those with degrees, but they have to work harder to prove it.  If there's an easy way and a hard way to get the exact same result (no strings attached), I might as well take the easy way.  On the other side of the interview table, I'm happy to look at candidates with no degree, but they'd better have the 4 years of work experience in its place.



  • @Aaron said:

    If there's an easy way and a hard way to get the exact same result (no strings attached), I might as well take the easy way.
     

    I guess it depends on how you define hard and easy ways.

    I don't define spending a ton of money and 4 years on school 'the easy way'.



  • Whoa, a computer degree thread. Well, it isn't just getting the degree that helps; it has to be at a university that actually gives you the tools to do so. Of course, someone who has enough time and does the right research might get up on par to a developer with a degree.

    My first example would explain why I have a decent job, while another colleague who decided to go into one of those "Express University" thingies hasn't managed to land a good job. Then again, there's another one who went to the WTFU of nationwide reputation of being a bad University, and also has a decent job. So it isn't just the school either; the student's attitude will actually define his performance.

    But college isn't just about learning your 31337 sk33lz; it sets up an entire mindset. Analytical thinking is one thing you'll get, problem solving and other things that will help you later on. Plus, that youe can learn it all by yourself doesn't mean you learn it the right way; I once got the following code from a non-CS guy:

    public class Whatever {

        ...

        public void getSomething(String s) { this.something = s; }

        public String setSomething() { return this.something; }

      ...

    }

    Of course, there are those with CS degrees that put us to shame by shoddy developer practices; but there are those developers without CS degrees that have very bad attitudes or practices as well.

    But it all boils down to one thing: TRWTF is that CS isn't treated the same as other Engineering areas. Would you drive through a bridge designed by someone lacking a Civil Engineering degree? This is even illegal in most countries.



  • @danixdefcon5 said:

     

    Of course, there are those with CS degrees that put us to shame by shoddy developer practices; but there are those developers without CS degrees that have very bad attitudes or practices as well.

     

    Then remind me again what the degree does for you...



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    @taylonr said:

     

    I know a company that thinks long and hard before hiring any CS/IT people for development. 

     

    I have met/hired/fired an awful lot of degreeed people in my time, it is amazing how many are still completely useless no matter what piece of paper hangs on their wall.

     

    That's fair enough, I know a lot of people at my university were useless. At my particular university, these people didn't manage to get degrees, but I can't claim that would be true for everywhere.

    Having a degree isn't proof that you are a great software developer.

    However, the idea that people who have degree are somehow worse/more stupid then those that don't is absurd,

    There's a lot of theory I learned at Uni that I wouldn't have learned otherwise. A formal education covering things like graph theory, formal methods and the such was very useful to me.

    I, and certainly my employers, are always a little wary of developers without degrees because there's no reason to think they've ever heard of these things or ever had a need to look them up.

    I'd say that you get good developers with degrees, and bad developers with degrees. You also get good developers without degrees and bad developers without degrees.



  • @SpoonMeiser said:

    However, the idea that people who have degree are somehow worse/more stupid then those that don't is absurd,
     

    No one that I saw ever argued this.

    @SpoonMeiser said:

    I'd say that you get good developers with degrees, and bad developers with degrees. You also get good developers without degrees and bad developers without degrees.

     And there is my point. Don't talk about how software developers or any similar field needs a degree. They don't.

    And since you could be good or bad either way, it doesn't make sense to some us to spend the time and money instead of making money to get that degree.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    @SpoonMeiser said:

    However, the idea that people who have degree are somehow worse/more stupid then those that don't is absurd,
     

    No one that I saw ever argued this.

    Actually, I did put forward the hypothesis that shoddy developers without degrees will probably get weeded out more effectively than shoddy developers with degrees.  I think it is quite possible that non-degree-holding software developers are on average better than ones who hold degrees and that they have a higher median income.  Most reasonable people seem to agree that individuals with degrees can suck and that individuals without degrees can do well.  The difference is that someone lacking a degree has nothing to hide behind and is most likely subjected to a higher level of scrutiny.  It's one of those counter-intuitive economic situations where the large quantity of degree-holding deadweight drags down the good degree-holding developers.  Meanwhile, the individuals without degrees either fail off the bat or advance quite far in the field, skewing the numbers.  Of course, I could be wrong, but it does seem quite plausible to me and it does match up with what I've observed from working in this industry.



  • @Faxmachinen said:

    Has there ever been any locked thread that MPS didn't post in?

     

    I think so, though it must have been a long time since.



  • @MasterPlanSoftware said:

    I don't define spending a ton of money and 4 years on school 'the easy way'.

     

    It's 4 years of school vs. 4 years of work.  Most people you ask would say that school was more fun for them, and when you get out, you have a much lower net worth but almost the same opportunities as someone without a degree who's been in the workforce for 4 years.

    In the end it really only comes down to the money, and the value you attach to convenience.  Total university costs were only a fraction of my present-day mortgage, so I wouldn't call it a "ton" of money either.  I think it was worth the price, but of course I'm not going to pretend that we're all working with the same cost equation.



  • @Aaron said:

    Total university costs were only a fraction of my present-day mortgage, so I wouldn't call it a "ton" of money either.
     

    Speaking of mortgages brings up another good point. While many people are accumulating debt throughout those 4 years, some of us were paying down a mortgage in those 4 years. 


Log in to reply