Let's play Tax Chicken!
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So.
I live in State A. My local government is B County.
I pay income tax to State A and B County.I work in State C. I work in municipality D
State C does not tax me, because I pay my state tax to State A.
Municipality D, however, claim that I owe them 1% of my income as a non-resident tax.On further research, the basis of that is that the law allows municipalities to tax residents of other states if the municipalities in that other state would charge a resident of State C an income tax.
As it turns out, B County charges residents of State C an income tax if and only if the municipality in which they live charges residents of State A who work there an income tax.
So, let me get this straight.
Municipality D taxes residents of B County who work in Municipality D because B County taxes residents of Municipality D who work in B County because Municipality D taxes residents of B County who work in Municipality D because B County taxes residents of Municipality D who work in B County because Municipality D taxes residents of B County who work in Municipality D because B County taxes residents of Municipality D who work in B County because Municipality D taxes residents of B County who work in Municipality D because B County taxes residents of Municipality D who work in B County because Municipality D taxes residents of B County who work in Municipality D because B County taxes residents of Municipality D who work in B County because Municipality D taxes residents of B County who work in Municipality D because B County taxes residents of Municipality D who work in B County because Municipality D taxes residents of B County who work in Municipality D because B County taxes residents of Municipality D who work in B County because Municipality D taxes residents of B County who work in Municipality D because B County taxes residents of Municipality D who work in B County because Municipality D taxes residents of B County who work in Municipality D because B County taxes residents of Municipality D who work in B County because Municipality D taxes residents of B County who work in Municipality D because B County taxes residents of Municipality D who work in B County because Municipality D taxes residents of B County who work in Municipality D because B County taxes residents of Municipality D who work in B County because Municipality D taxes residents of B County who work in Municipality D because B County taxes residents of Municipality D who work in B County because Municipality D taxes residents of B County who work in Municipality D because B County taxes residents of Municipality D who work in B County because Municipality D taxes residents of B County who work in Municipality D because B County taxes residents of Municipality D who work in B County because Municipality D taxes residents of B County who work in Municipality D because B County taxes residents of Municipality D who work in B County because Municipality D taxes residents of B County who work in Municipality D because B County taxes residents of Municipality D who work in B County because Municipality D taxes residents of B County who work in Municipality D because B County taxes residents of Municipality D who work in B County because Municipality D taxes residents of B County who work in Municipality D because B County taxes residents of Municipality D who work in B County because Municipality D taxes residents of B County who work in Municipality D because B County taxes residents of Municipality D who work in B County because Municipality D taxes residents of B County who work in Municipality D because B County taxes residents of Municipality D who work in B County because Municipality D taxes residents of B County who work in Municipality D because B County taxes residents of Municipality D who work in B County because Municipality D taxes residents of B County who work in Municipality D because B County taxes residents of Municipality D who work in B CountySTACK OVERFLOW
1% of my income literally vanishes in a puff of fucking idiotic legal recursion.
I have forwarded this information to my CPA, who was incredulous at the very idea that Municipality D doesn't refund my damned money every year.
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@Weng It goes without saying that the default condition of the tax collecting people isn't "ehh, we won't tax them". So "legally we can tax them if they tax us, and legally they can tax us if we tax them" is interpreted in the way that brings the most tax dollars to both states. I for one am not surprised by this.
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Some jurisdictions are nice and friendly about it. I live in State A and work in State B, and those states have a reciprocal agreement wherein I only owe income taxes to State A, and can file a one-page form to get back all withheld income tax from State B each year.
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The joys of federal governments and working across tax borders (the latter would apply between countries in Europe, for instance).
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@Weng said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
a puff of fucking idiotic legal recursion.
QF... uh... epicness? Yeah, epicness.
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TRWTF is that @weng gave a different hungarian notation suffix to the municipalities in each state. I had to s///g all instances of "B County" and "Municipality D" with "County A" and "Municipality C" respectively to keep track and wrap my mind around this.
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Well, they're actually different classes of government. The county is a larger area, probably around 360-500 square miles, and I would guess that it either doesn't have a large town or @Weng doesn't live in said town.
The municipality is a big city and/or its surrounding suburbs. Said municipality D resides within a county (E), but is a separate taxing district (and usually grows at the expense of said county E).
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@izzion these things confuse me because there is nothing similar here, counties, towns and cities. all we have here are cities, that are contained by states, that are contained by the federal government/country
how do these things work there?
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The county is a mostly obsolete concept the United States inherited from England. The fact that our country began as a set of distinct colonies that became states in the United States, and which individually are made up of counties added this extra confusing level of government.
Counties in the United States in many places govern the unincorporated places, the places outside of established cities. They also run the local court systems. In some counties which are entirely made up of cities, the local courts are the only thing counties do.
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@fbmac said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
@izzion these things confuse me because there is nothing similar here, counties, towns and cities. all we have here are cities, that are contained by states, that are contained by the federal government/country
how do these things work there?
In America, a "city" is a large population center where many, many people live. I'm not sure of the exact rules of classification, but a decent rule of thumb is, "if it's big enough that most people all over the country know about it, it's a city." Smaller population centers are called "towns" (or various other things depending on which part of the country you live in). States are large enough that they're broken up into multiple administrative districts known as "counties", which comprise multiple cities and/or towns. Each level has its own government, which of course means its own tax system to support that government.
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@devjoe so counties can contain cities and things that aren't inside cities, and is contained by the state?
is there a practical difference between a town and a city? and a village?
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@masonwheeler ok, so a county is like an intermediate division between city and state
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@fbmac Yeah, basically. Our states are larger than many countries, so they need smaller "state"-like divisions inside them as well.
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@fbmac said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
is there a practical difference between a town and a city? and a village?
City: huge.
Town: small to large
Village: tiny
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@masonwheeler Except it actually depends on whether the population centre is incorporated. If it is, it's a city. There are some frightfully small places that can claim to be a city, though if it has a population of less than a thousand then it is definitely something of a piss-take on the concept…
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@masonwheeler so, a village isn't inside a city, like a neighbourhood?
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@fbmac said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
is there a practical difference between a town and a city? and a village?
There is a legal difference in the state I live in on what exactly are the governmental requirements and abilities of a city, a village and a township. Townships can't have income taxes, the others can.
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@fbmac not usually. But some neighborhoods call themselves "X village". That's just not usually a legal concept.
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@Yamikuronue said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
Our
statesbureaucracy are larger than many countries, so they need smaller "state"-like divisions inside them as well.FTFM. Cities inside muncipalities inside counties inside a country with not even 5 million inhabitants.
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@Yamikuronue said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
@fbmac Yeah, basically. Our states are larger than many countries, so they need smaller "state"-like divisions inside them as well.
the same can be said about brazillian states, but we don't have anything like counties. but a lot of things are different in our states too, most of the things that are different in each american state are regulated by federal law here
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@fbmac said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
@devjoe so counties can contain cities and things that aren't inside cities, and is contained by the state?
is there a practical difference between a town and a city? and a village?
Yes. With certain weird exceptions, all the land of a state is divided into counties. But there can be land which is not part of a city or town.
And in general, cities are located inside counties. There are exceptions here, too. In some places, a city has grown to occupy an entire county, and the city and county governments are often merged where this happens. Cities can also cross county lines and exist in more than one county. New York City actually includes 5 whole counties, which have basically ceased to exist except that people refer to them as the boroughs of the city.
What's worse, cities can span across states, although the examples I know of actually exist as two separate cities which cooperate to some degree. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texarkana
As to whether there is a difference between a city and a town, this varies. Some places a town is just a name for a small city, while in some states there is a legal difference in the kind of local government allowed. See, for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_divisions_of_Massachusetts#Form_of_government:_city_vs._town
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The actual heirarchy is even more bizarre.
In State A, there is the federal government, then the state government, then the county government. There are no city governments (except in special cases where a city is treated as a standalone county).
In State C, there is the fed, the state, a nebulous county and zillions of postage stamp "cities". Cities often cooperate or even annex each other, providing shared services. Different services may have different coverage zones. Generally every bullshit little town has its own court, as this allows them to collect traffic fine revenue.
Counties only provide the grandest shared services. Prisons and garbage, mostly. Public transport in the rare case it exists at all.
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@devjoe said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
What's worse, cities can span across states, although the examples I know of actually exist as two separate cities which cooperate to some degree.
Perhaps the most notorious is Kansas City, the majority of which is located in Missouri, not Kansas.
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@fbmac said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
is there a practical difference between a town and a city? and a village?
Some states have different legal definitions for those. I don't claim to understand it. Other states a city is a city is a city. It's just the level of government below county (federal -> state -> county -> city...roughly).
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@Weng said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
I have forwarded this information to my CPA, who was incredulous at the very idea that Municipality D doesn't refund my damned money every year.
Just how naïve is your CPA? Governments never give tax money back on their own initiative.
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@masonwheeler While useful as a general description, it's not strictly true. Massachusetts, for example, divides them, in addition to population, whether you have a mayor or a town council, IIRC. So you have towns like Weymouth with 50K people, that are larger, population-wise, than some cities.
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Basically, in EU terms (roughly)...
The EU = United States
A state (e.g. Texas) = A country (e.g. France)
A county (e.g. Lubbock County) = A state/region (sorry, no names I know of for good reference here)
A city (e.g. Houston) = A city (e.g. Paris)
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@izzion said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
Basically, in EU terms (roughly)...
The EU = United States
A state (e.g. Texas) = A country (e.g. France)
A county (e.g. Lubbock County) = A state/region (sorry, no names I know of for good reference here)
A city (e.g. Houston) = A city (e.g. Paris)Except that the US stayed together a lot longer before some of its states started talking about seriously wanting to leave...
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@fbmac said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
@masonwheeler ok, so a county is like an intermediate division between city and state
Not necessarily. Each borough in NYC is a distinct county.
Though NYC is probably just a special snowflake.
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@masonwheeler said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
@devjoe said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
What's worse, cities can span across states, although the examples I know of actually exist as two separate cities which cooperate to some degree.
Perhaps the most notorious is Kansas City, the majority of which is located in Missouri, not Kansas.
Sure, and then there's also
Portland (Oregon) is right on the Washington border
Chicago (Illinois) is close enough to both the Indiana and Wisconsin borders to include parts of each in its metro area
Philadelphia (Pennsylvania) is right on the New Jersey border
Fargo (North Dakota) is right on the border with Minnesota
St. Louis (Missouri) is right on the Illinois border
Minneapolis-St. Paul (Minnesota) metro area extends into Wisconsin
Louisville (Kentucky) is right on the Indiana border
Memphis (Tennessee) is right on the borders with Arkansas and Mississippi
Cincinnati (Ohio) is right on the Kentucky border and pretty close to the Indiana borderThen you've also got cities like Detroit (Michigan) and Buffalo (New York) which are right on the Canada border, and El Paso (Texas) and San Diego (California) are right next to the Mexico border.
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@masonwheeler and how big is a hamlet? Or a hollow?
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@izzion Champagne region?
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@JazzyJosh said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
@Karla said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
Each borough in NYC is a distinct county.
NY state lets NYC do whatever it wants because that is where the
bribesfunding comes from. At least that is my experience so far from working for state education.
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In Poland it's fun. We have something like your states (województwo), there's 16 of them. Then there's something like your county (powiat), each larger city is a center of one. Then there's even smaller part called gmina and generally each town has it. Then there's this another thing which is supposed to be an aid to gminas called sołectwo, which generally centers around a large village inside of a gmina. Oooh, and each of those has its own bureaucracy.
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@Karla said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
NYC is probably just a special snowflake.
Kind of. Certainly, every NYC borough is its own county (Manhattan = New York Co., Bronx = Bronx Co., Queens = Queens Co., Brooklyn = Kings Co., Staten Island = Richmond Co.), but other places in the U.S. span multiple counties.
In B4
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@JazzyJosh said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
@Karla said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
Each borough in NYC is a distinct county.
Like I said special snowflake.
Each borough has a Borough President. Each county has its own courts. And we also pay NYC tax on top of NY state tax.
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@kt_ said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
województwo
I'm impressed how you people can learn your own language. Your words looks like random characters to me.
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Interesting.
I think that is still a small enough number compared to all the cities in the US to still qualify as special snowflakes.
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@fbmac said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
@kt_ said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
województwo
I'm impressed how you people can learn your own language. Your words looks like random characters to me.
It's the simplest, most natural language in the world! It took me no time to learn.
Brazilian on the other hand…
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@izzion said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
A county (e.g. Lubbock County) = A state/region (sorry, no names I know of for good reference here)
These subdivisions are named differently in each country. France has régions, Germany has Länder, Switzerland has cantons. The UK is weird by containing 4 countries (England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, which compete separately in sports events), but it also has counties (I think). However, these subdivisions usually don't get to tax income (maybe they do in the countries that are federations, like Switzerland or Germany, but they certainly don't in the countries that aren't, like France).
@masonwheeler The EU is only equivalent to the federal government in a very superficial way, and there was absolutely no thought put into making the EU into a single country.
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@izzion said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
A state/region (sorry, no names I know of for good reference here)
IIRC the French term is "department", possibly with an accent somewhere. (Mexico, IIRC, uses the same word.)
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@Karla said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
Not necessarily. Each borough in NYC is a distinct county.
That's not even the only place. South Florida[1] is one giant city, but consists of at least three counties: Miami-Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach.
[1] that is, I mean the big city in southeast florida. The western half, which isn't the same metropolitan area, I'm not counting.
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@anotherusername And then there's Kansas City, which is split in half and in two states.
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@FrostCat said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
@anotherusername And then there's Kansas City, which is split in half and in two states.
I didn't forget Kansas City, I skipped it because it was already mentioned in the post that I quoted.
It's technically 2 cities which border each other (Kansas City, Missouri, and Kansas City, Kansas). The metro area spans both and it's large enough that a whole bunch of other smaller cities and towns are included the metro area as well. Like most of the other cities on my list (probably all of them, I guess).
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@anotherusername said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
It's technically 2 cities which border each other
According to Google Maps, there's a bit in one of the river bends where the state line marches right down a block.
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@anotherusername Technically the Kansas the City came before Kansas the State.
Another tax stupidity I had, and had accountants try to help me with it: I made income X in state A, then moved to state B where I made income Y. A has income tax, while B doesn't. So I assume that I pay state A's tax on X, and federal on X+Y. I was mistaken, as I got a letter from the state A's department of revenue saying there was a discrepancy and I needed to pay A's tax on X+Y as well, even though I never earned a dime of income Y in state A.
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@anotherusername said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
@FrostCat said in Let's play Tax Chicken!:
@anotherusername And then there's Kansas City, which is split in half and in two states.
I didn't forget Kansas City, I skipped it because it was already mentioned in the post that I quoted.
It's technically 2 cities which border each other (Kansas City, Missouri, and Kansas City, Kansas).
That's what I thought. Family drove through to get to St Louis when I was 11 so I figured I could have been mis-remembering.
List of former municipalities in New York City - Wikipedia
