Experience, practice, time
-
There was a thread around here somewhere where @cartman82 and @blakeyrat were bitching with each other about time spent programming and the value thereof. I couldn't find it, but i came across a link that's related to that debate and interesting:
It doesn't touch on programming or computers at all, but deals with the subject of mastery of any sort of skill. It's from the blog of a martial artist, and eventually focuses on that (where some of the terminology might confuse people not familiar with it) but starts with common areas that anyone should be able to follow.
-
@boomzilla It's bullshit. I know programmers with more than 10 years of experience that can't code their way out of a paper bag.
-
@fbmac I think it's your logic that's bullshit.
-
@fbmac There is a difference between 10 years of experience and 1 year of experience 10 times.
-
@LB_ Not to mention the difference between necessary and sufficient. Or any other zillions of things that could prevent someone from improving at something.
-
@fbmac said in Experience, practice, time:
I know programmers with more than 10 years of experience that can't code their way out of a paper bag.
are they still new then?
-
-
I read a related book called The Art of Learning by International (chess) Master and one-time Tai Chi Chuan world champion Joshua Waitzkin. He was the kid Searching for Bobby Fischer was about.
Basically he talks about how to rise to mastery in any craft, and a lot about philosophy and the psychology of competition.
-
@error To reach a Bobby Fischer level of playing chess you have to put a lot of time on it, for sure.
But most people would never reach this level, no matter how much training they put on. Anyone arguing it's possible have no idea how good at chess a grandmaster is.
-
@fbmac said in Experience, practice, time:
@error To reach a Bobby Fischer level of playing chess you have to put a lot of time on it, for sure.
But most people would never reach this level, no matter how much training they put on. Anyone arguing it's possible have no idea how good at chess a grandmaster is.
It's a good thing that nobody's making that argument then.
Tl;dr of my post: this chessmaster guy wrote a book about refining the art of learning. It's called The Art of Learning. I read it, and so should everybody.
-
@error ok, now write a tl; dr of the book
-
@fbmac said in Experience, practice, time:
@error ok, now write a tl; dr of the book
TL:DR of the Art of Learning: You still need to read The Art of Learning
-
@fbmac said in Experience, practice, time:
@error ok, now write a tl; dr of the book
To learn stuff, read books.
Filed under: Not actually what the book is about.
-
Along with marital arts, it's my passion.
-
@fbmac said in Experience, practice, time:
I know programmers with more than 10 years of experience that can't code their way out of a paper bag.
It's actually 10k hours of mindful learning that is required (IIRC, it's related to how long it takes to form and fully myelinise the appropriate neural circuits in the brain). Most people pick that up in about 10 years. Some people don't apply themselves. Some people apply themselves extra hard and take less than 10 years.
The effect's been seen in many other disciplines too, such as musical composition and lots of physical trades.
-
@dkf said in Experience, practice, time:
It's actually 10k hours of mindful learning that is required (IIRC, it's related to how long it takes to form and fully myelinise the appropriate neural circuits in the brain). Most people pick that up in about 10 years. Some people don't apply themselves. Some people apply themselves extra hard and take less than 10 years.
-
This post is deleted!
-
@fbmac said in Experience, practice, time:
10k hours
That's all bullshit.
The 10,000 Hour Rule Is Not Real
The biggest meta-analysis of research to date indicates that practice does not make perfect
"Practice makes perfect" is related bullshit. I always tell people to instead think "Practice makes permanent."
-
@boomzilla Is this the same "10,000 hours" stuff we've all seen a million times in the last few years?
-
@blakeyrat The link I posted originally? Not really, though he mentions some of that stuff. He's more talking about the qualities of the experience over whatever amount of time. And that high quality practice, reflection, etc, will produce superior skill.
-
@boomzilla That still misses my point entirely.
You can have superior skill at programming; you can be hot-shit programmer of the world, king of all programmers, and still utterly fail at creating good software. Because creating good software requires about a hundred skills that have nothing to do with programming.
Like, maybe you think Linus Torvalds is that hot-shit programmer, right? But then he made Git. So... what good did it do him? I'd rather have a source control program made by someone who perhaps isn't as sharp a programmer, but had some experience with human factors and, hey, possibly even some empathy for his users why not.
I'm not saying "you can't become a good programmer even if you practice all the time", I'm saying "even if your a great programmer that doesn't necessarily make you good at creating software". Just like the super-mega-crowbar expert isn't necessarily the best person at tearing down an old barn. (Sure--- sooner or later a crowbar will be required for that job. But a guy who knows only crowbars isn't the right person for it.)
-
@blakeyrat said in Experience, practice, time:
That still misses my point entirely.
Not everything is about you.
-
@fbmac said in Experience, practice, time:
But most people would never reach this level, no matter how much training they put on. Anyone arguing it's possible have no idea how good at chess a grandmaster is.
Even national master (>2200 USCF) is relatively rare. Only 2% of tournament players ever make it to that level.
Last I checked there were more NFL players than chess grandmasters.
-
@antiquarian said in Experience, practice, time:
there were more NFL players than chess grandmasters
How many football players (at any level, even Pop Warner) exist, vs. chess players (at any level)? Also, how much $$$ BIG MONEY $$$ is possible for chess players vs. NFL players?
-
This post is deleted!
-
@lolwhat said in Experience, practice, time:
Also, how much $$$ BIG MONEY $$$ is possible for chess players vs. NFL players?
This is probably the bigger factor. From wikipedia:
Carlsen reportedly earned roughly US$1.2 million in 2012, the bulk of which was from sponsorships.
Pretty much any NFL starter makes more. And he's the world champ. From what I hear, only the top 10-20 players in the world make enough money to survive without taking on students or serving as seconds.
-
@antiquarian said in Experience, practice, time:
This is probably the bigger factor.
Also, you can only play so much football before your body is used up. Chess matches are not so punishing. This is a weird comparison.
-
@boomzilla said in Experience, practice, time:
Also, you can only play so much football before your body is used up. Chess matches are not so punishing. This is a weird comparison.
Age and physical fitness play a bigger role than you would think. Major tournament games can last more than 5 hours, and the mental calculation can be exhausting.
-
@antiquarian said in Experience, practice, time:
Age and physical fitness play a bigger role than you would think.
No, I considered that, too. Though I suspect the physical characteristics required for a top chess level player are just as rare as the physical characteristics for a top football player.
-
@antiquarian said in Experience, practice, time:
Major tournament games can last more than 5 hours, and the mental calculation can be exhausting.
Certainly. However, with football, parts of your body/brain can be damaged forever. Chess? Maybe if you suffer a horrible mental breakdown, yeah, but otherwise...
-
This post is deleted!
-
@lolwhat said in Experience, practice, time:
Certainly. However, with football, parts of your body/brain can be damaged forever. Chess? Maybe if you suffer a horrible mental breakdown, yeah, but otherwise...
True, you can continue to play chess for a long time, but not necessarily at the top level. Anand, born in 1969 (and younger than me, I might add), is the oldest of the top 20 players.
