Steam based their OS on Linux, so of course it's broken shit


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    This post is deleted!


  • And this is the point when you have to stop, we got it, you are a Windows fanboy, its OK, I use both W10 and W7 on my gaming PCs, while my laptop has Mint only for job purposes.
    But you ask first to list how many games runs on linux without being "Windows emulated" then you got rekt by the huge quantity of games that are running on linux natively, even with UE4, Unity and Crytek engine we got Linux games that arent windows ports, because those engines export the games for to Windows, MAC and Linux natively.
    Then you pointed out that most games are "indies", and there is where you getting to the troll side, because no matter if you arent bound to indie, those are games. So sorry if not everybody is looking behind Electronic Arts/ Ubisoft or Activision sh ! t. A fact you cant denied is that there are people playing on linux, is most cases out of the box.

    The most funny thing about this is that all this "fight" about Steam or Linux being suitable for games or not, comes from a stupid article in arstechnica from a guy who didnt even bother to try another cable or another monitor, using a TV which is not standard because it is two monitors attached to each other, something you will rarely see ever on a TV or monitor.



  • @Edwin_Obando said:

    But you ask first to list how many games runs on linux without being "Windows emulated" then you got rekt by the huge quantity of games that are running on linux natively, even with UE4, Unity and Crytek engine we got Linux games that arent windows ports, because those engines export the games for to Windows, MAC and Linux natively.

    Wow, I hope English is your second language, because that sentence is a mess.

    You're missing the point though. The games run in Unreal, Unity and Crytek. They don't run in Linux. They weren't written for Linux. The only reason you can play them in Linux is because Unreal, Unity and Crytek happen to run in Linux.

    It sounds like hair-splitting, but it's not. Unless you can prove that any of those games chose Unreal Engine because it runs in Linux, then you really have no idea if they even intended or cared if their game ran in Linux. They could have picked any of those engines because they all have proven titles on Xbox and Playstation consoles. Or because they have the best content editing tools. Or because they have easy-to-use asset stores. The Linux thing is just a side-effect, at least it is in my mind, until you can prove otherwise.

    @Edwin_Obando said:

    Then you pointed out that most games are "indies", and there is where you getting to the troll side, because no matter if you arent bound to indie, those are games.

    Right; they just happen to be shitty ones. (For the most part.)

    @Edwin_Obando said:

    The most funny thing about this is that all this "fight" about Steam or Linux being suitable for games or not, comes from a stupid article in arstechnica from a guy who didnt even bother to try another cable or another monitor, using a TV which is not standard because it is two monitors attached to each other, something you will rarely see ever on a TV or monitor.

    Dude. It didn't fucking work. It doesn't matter why it didn't fucking work, the point is that the guy spent 900 British currency units on the damned thing and it didn't fucking work. That is the point.



  • This thread is confusing.

    Linux as a platform isn't any worse than anything else. If you're going to replace the whole UI (like Valve is), it's up to you to make it user friendly. If they failed, it's their fault. At lower level things usually work just fine. Like, it doesn't crash and burn any more than on Windows if you get audio and video working (with proper GPU drivers).

    The stock UIs (Desktop Environments) all suck, that's generally agreed upon. They are trying to fix it but usually the developers don't have a fucking clue how to design something user friendly. Anything below the UI is implementation details and they usually don't suck that bad given that an advanced user can usually make Linux work. You really need to replace all UI with something actually working like Android does. Every working Linux system that people unknowingly uses has a completely custom UI stack, like point of sale systems.

    Case in point: I had to tweak a lot of crap to get hibernation working. I did work just fine, but it annoyed my greatly that I had to manually calculate some filesystem offsets to set my hibernation file (swap file) and set kernel boot parameters. These kinds of things should Just The Fuck Work.

    Anyone telling me to use a swap partition can go fuck themselves. Dedicated non-expanding partitions are a bad idea because there's no real performance impact when using a file.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    When's the last time you heard of a computer being incompatible with a monitor?

    When's the last time you heard of a(ny) linux being user-friendly and (/or at least) sane? I mean, seriously, who was it that thought: "the OS that started as highly geeky, DIY, hardcore programmer's tool, that will bear its shell and 'edit this text config file buried in levels of arcanely named folders' legacy to the grave, the OS that makes changing any simple thing a respectable half-day task? oh yes, that's the perfect starting point for the OS for our GAMING CONSOLE, a machine that's expected to be simple to use even for amateurs, that's supposed to be "just run and play" without requiring people to even know what drivers are and whether they have them!"

    That guy should've been fired. Not now, but on the spot the second he suggested that.



  • @hifi said:

    Linux as a platform isn't any worse than anything else. If you're going to replace the whole UI (like Valve is), it's up to you to make it user friendly. If they failed, it's their fault.

    If they failed, it's the fault of the unix's "you don't need UI for that" disease that infects everyone after working with those systems for longer periods of time.



  • "My software is broken because the platform / library that I use prevents me from thinking clearly about the customer's requirements" is a pretty bad excuse, I'd say.



  • I completely agree. Doesn't stop linux fans from doing so all the time, though.

    you know what they say: Linux is not an operating system, it's a philosophy, a way of thinking, a state of mind.

    They're completely right.



  • Even VGA had a digital command link.



  • This post is deleted!


  • Actually, there is a huge difference in philosophy / thinking / mentality between, say, Linus Torvalds and Richard Stallman.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @hifi said:

    ...it annoyed my greatly that I had to manually calculate some filesystem offsets to set my hibernation file (swap file) and set kernel boot parameters.

    @hifi said:

    Dedicated non-expanding partitions are a bad idea because there's no real performance impact when using a file.

    That's why you give LVM an entire physical partition, or physical disk (or twenty) to play with and carve logical volumes out of that that get formatted. You can even shrink and grow the LVs on the fly and -with most filesystems- you can enlarge the FS on the fly, too. (Some FSs allow you to shrink them while mounted, but not very many.)

    LVM is really great, and resuming from LVM-backed swap partitions is supported with no hassle whatsoever. Partially because of this, "noone" uses swap files.



  • But does an LVM partition work as a hibernate restoration point without hassle? If it does, then I can switch to that once I reinstall.



  • @FrostCat said:

    Linus didn't like that Minix had a monolithic kernel, and took a couple of potshots at the guy who write Minix, which were returned.

    You've got that backwards. Minix has a microkernel, Linux is a monolith.



  • @hifi said:

    does an LVM partition work as a hibernate restoration point without hassle?

    As long as you're using an LVM-aware boot loader like GRUB 2: yes.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @flabdablet said:

    You've got that backwards.

    You and whoever else said that are kind of getting lost in the weeds.



  • I'll grant you the kernel and networking and file system stuff seems to work ok and mostly it's all the user-facing stuff that sucks ass. Windows still works better at the kernel level, but Linux isn't super far behind.

    The problem is those damned human beings who want to use the thing.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @blakeyrat said:

    Dude. It didn't fucking work. It doesn't matter why it didn't fucking work,

    Like, if he tried to plug a US plug into a German plug? That wouldn't matter either? You're really reaching here. :headdesk:



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Windows still works better at the kernel level, but Linux isn't super far behind.

    For flexibility and performance of both networking and filesystems, Linux is well ahead of the Windows kernel at this point. Linux also has far better hardware support built in, though third-party hardware drivers for Windows are generally easier to find.


  • FoxDev

    @flabdablet said:

    Linux also has far better hardware support built in



  • No, seriously. It really does. Linux has a massively long tail of driver support for older hardware, much of which would need a third-party driver on Windows - and that's assuming you can still find a driver compatible with your current Windows kernel. Linux is also updated far more frequently than the Windows kernel and it usually doesn't take terribly long for drivers compatible with newer hardware to get included in it.

    Third party drivers for new hardware are certainly easier to come by for Windows than for Linux, but I'm talking about what comes built in.

    It will be interesting to see whether the kernel in the "always up to date" "OS as a service" Windows 10 can keep up with Linux on included support for new hardware.


  • FoxDev

    I think you're forgetting just how often stuff comes down over Windows Update. And the only reason Linux has this 'long tail' is because of the efforts of the open source community, who could do exactly the same for Windows if so many of them weren't so militant in their OSS attitude.


  • FoxDev

    @RaceProUK said:

    who could do exactly the same for Windows if so many of them weren't so militant in their OSS attitude.

    not necessarily.

    the Windows Kernel and Linux Kernel are sufficiently different that effectively two entirely separate code bases would have to be developed and maintained for these older pieces of hardware, possibly more than one version for windows as the kernel has changed significantly over the generations.

    There's also the difference between how windows and linux treat userspace vs kernelspace which can cause unusual design constraints to emerge.

    so it's not going to be just a "change the compiler target" to get a linux driver ready for windows. that's a significant amount of effort, and regardless of the zealousness or lack thereof for the OSS attitude there also needs to be a genuine motivation for producing the windows driver.

    a motivation which is severely lacking with the current ecosystems of Linux and Windows. A large external effort would need to be mounted in order to provide motivation to bring such legacy drivers to the windows ecosystem.


  • FoxDev

    @accalia said:

    so it's not going to be just a "change the compiler target" to get a linux driver ready for windows

    I never said otherwise 😛


  • FoxDev

    @RaceProUK said:

    I never said otherwise

    never claimed you did, i just pointed out that there are significnat other considerations for developers above and beyond the "OSS 'tude"

    ;-)



  • @flabdablet said:

    For flexibility ... of both networking and filesystems,

    Who gives a shit. Just pick the one best option and go for it.

    @flabdablet said:

    and performance

    Citation needed.

    @flabdablet said:

    Linux also has far better hardware support built in,

    Then how come I can replace my graphics or sound driver in Windows without even a reboot, when you can't do it in Linux short of a re-compile?! (Ok, I know it's not that bad, but you get the point.)

    Plus we've had the discussion in the past as to how Linux handles complicated hardware, like a TV/FM radio tuner, and it sounds like a really really shitty API for devices like that. Sure it works, but Windows actually has APIs to manage hardware like that.



  • @flabdablet said:

    Linux has a massively long tail of driver support for older hardware, much of which would need a third-party driver on Windows - and that's assuming you can still find a driver compatible with your current Windows kernel.

    And assuming someone on the Kernel team actually owns a copy of the hardware in question, will notice when the constant code churn causes it to stop working, and will have the skill and inclination to actually fix it.

    @flabdablet said:

    Linux is also updated far more frequently than the Windows kernel

    That's not a good thing.

    @flabdablet said:

    but I'm talking about what comes built in.

    Do you count the thousands and thousands of drivers on Windows Update? Or just the ones that ship on the disk?

    @flabdablet said:

    It will be interesting to see whether the kernel in the "always up to date" "OS as a service" Windows 10 can keep up with Linux on included support for new hardware.

    It doesn't need to keep up, it's already left Linux in the dust.



  • @accalia said:

    possibly more than one version for windows as the kernel has changed significantly over the generations.

    The Windows driver model has changed exactly three times. Once when they moved from 16-bit to 32-bit Windows (and 32-bit could still run the 16-bit drivers.) A second when the mainstream OS moved from being Win32-based to being WinNT-based. A third in between Windows XP and Windows Vista (and Vista and Windows 7 can still run older XP drivers, if you nag them a bit. Not sure if 8+ still has that capability.)

    While the kernel has changed significantly, the driver ABI has been stable as a fucking rock for ages. As it should be, because that's just plain good engineering.


  • FoxDev

    @blakeyrat said:

    While the kernel has changed significantly, the driver ABI has been stable as a fucking rock for ages. As it should be, because that's just plain good engineering.

    correct, however the functions exported in the windows headers have changed a lot more than this, depending on what exactly the driver is doing and how much interop it wants/needs to do with the kernel this can cause issues moving from one version to another.

    sure they're solveable, but that's effort.

    of course because they'd be good OSS blokes i'm fairly certain that they'd stay away from any thing not explicitly upported by the fine folks at redmond



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Dude. It didn't fucking work. It doesn't matter why it didn't fucking work, the point is that the guy spent 900 British currency units on the damned thing and it didn't fucking work. That is the point.

    I spent $400 on an XBone and, when I tried to plug it into my Zenith B&W TV from 1976, it didn't work.
    It doesn't matter why it didn't fucking work, the point is the damned thing didn't fucking work.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    While the kernel has changed significantly, the driver ABI has been stable as a fucking rock for ages. As it should be, because that's just plain good engineering.

    Not necessarily. A stable ABI facilitates (and thus gives an incentive to) the situation where drivers aren't included in the OS (or 'distribution') but are to be downloaded in precompiled form from a third party. It is not a technical but a political decision if you want to encourage or discourage that.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Then how come I can replace my graphics or sound driver in Windows without even a reboot, when you can't do it in Linux short of a re-compile?!

    We already explained to you that this is simply not true, but you keep spitting the same bullshit.

    You are just a fuckin liar that lies.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    The Windows driver model has changed exactly three times. Once when they moved from 16-bit to 32-bit Windows (and 32-bit could still run the 16-bit drivers.) A second when the mainstream OS moved from being Win32-based to being WinNT-based. A third in between Windows XP and Windows Vista (and Vista and Windows 7 can still run older XP drivers, if you nag them a bit. Not sure if 8+ still has that capability.)

    Liar !
    You are just choosing to ignore ME.



  • @Grunnen said:

    It is not a technical but a political decision if you want to encourage or discourage that.

    It's bad engineering.

    @TimeBandit said:

    We already explained to you that this is simply not true, but you keep spitting the same bullshit.

    Which part? Are you saying I can swap-out my graphics driver in Linux without rebooting? (And, if so, is that due to Linus' efforts, or due to an adapter made by the company that made the graphics driver?)

    If I'm lying, then I have a lot of Linux-using friends who are also lying to me.

    @TimeBandit said:

    You are just choosing to ignore ME.

    ME used the same driver model as Windows 98, as far as I am aware. If you have information to the contrary, please share it.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    It's bad engineering.

    It is good engineering if it achieves the goal that you set. E.g. for Richard Stallman it would be good engineering to break the ABI on purpose as often as possible (not that I agree with him, but again, that's politics!).



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Are you saying I can swap-out my graphics driver in Linux without rebooting? (And, if so, is that due to Linus' efforts, or due to an adapter made by the company that made the graphics driver?)

    Since we're going for max pedantry already... You can unload/reload any driver that is not in use and that was built as a module.

    That means, yes, you can swap-out your graphics driver without rebooting. But since X11 (the graphics subsystem) uses the driver, you have to shut it down. If you're a normal user, you might -at that point- just as well be rebooting the machine, it's unlikely that there is a large difference for your user-experience in practice.

    If you're doing HPC stuff on the GPUs, this is more useful. You're likely not running X11 anyway, and if your task scheduler for your computational cluster additionally sets up your application's enviroment each time it's run, you can basically support per-application driver builds.

    FWIW, I wish that you could hotswap drivers without shutting down X11, so Windows does have an advantage there.



  • @cvi said:

    FWIW, I wish that you could hotswap drivers without shutting down X11, so Windows does have an advantage there.

    You could always use HURD.



  • @cvi said:

    FWIW, I wish that you could hotswap drivers without shutting down X11, so Windows does have an advantage there.

    When's X12 coming out already!!!!!

    Wait, didn't they just fork X11 a few years ago because it sucked? Did development on the fork also immediately stall?

    Maybe instead of making yet another package manager, maybe you spend some time on the thing that makes your OS a laughing stock.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Maybe instead of making yet another package manager, maybe you spend some time on the thing that makes your OS a laughing stock.

    After all, take Windows as an example. They finally added virtual desktops, so, hey, Windows just graduated from toy OS to actually somewhat usable. 🔥


  • FoxDev

    I'm sure all 17 people who wanted it are rejoicing 😛



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Which part? Are you saying I can swap-out my graphics driver in Linux without rebooting? (And, if so, is that due to Linus' efforts, or due to an adapter made by the company that made the graphics driver?)

    If I'm lying, then I have a lot of Linux-using friends who are also lying to me.

    :moving_goal_post:
    I'll quote your original line

    @blakeyrat said:

    Then how come I can replace my graphics or sound driver in Windows without even a reboot, when you can't do it in Linux short of a re-compile?! (Ok, I know it's not that bad, but you get the point.)

    Like @cvi explained, if you change your video driver, you have to restart the X server, but no need to reboot.
    And this is not new, it's been like that forever.
    For pretty much every other drivers, they can be removed and inserted with rmmod / modprobe.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @RaceProUK said:

    I'm sure all 17 people who wanted it are rejoicing 😛

    👋



  • How many of them are TDWTF regulars?


  • FoxDev

    Probably all of them 😆



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Wait, didn't they just fork X11 a few years ago because it sucked? Did development on the fork also immediately stall?

    They have added quite a number of extensions to X.

    However - please correct me if I am wrong - Microsoft has been quite clever in that they introduced the GDI system already in Windows 1.0, with an API that supports 24-bit rgb colors even though printers were black-and-white and computer screens had 16 colors at the most. So on Windows, it is possible to switch back to, say, the 640x480x16 screen mode and programs continue to work fine. Yet Windows is still backwards compatible.

    X11 is about as old as Windows 1.0, but has a much more stupid color management system that they still want to be backwards compatible with.

    But supposedly people are now working on this 'Wayland' project which will break this backwards compatibility.



  • @RaceProUK said:

    I'm sure all 17 people who wanted it are rejoicing 😛

    Wait ... you're saying I'm not alone in this world? :rejoicing.ko:


  • FoxDev

    you too?

    sweet!



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Are you saying I can swap-out my graphics driver in Linux without rebooting?

    Of course you can't.

    But nobody else has any trouble doing that.



  • @xaade said:

    that didn't primarily come from a corporation

    There are plenty of video games with 1- or 2-person dev teams.



  • Targeted at your grandma?

    I think SBCG4AP only had half a person on its dev team, and that wasn't targeted at anyone.


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