Getting fired
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This was a little while back now but I was working on a small system for local councils in the UK. I had recently suggested to my boss that we upgrade our customers to the latest version of the development package (since having them all on different versions made rollouts complicated and some were even unsupported). The timescale I suggested for this was about 6 months to allow me to migrate older versions and ensure all the functionality worked within the new version.
He sent me out the following week with instructions to "just get out there and do the upgrades". Of course there were multiple failures, including versions from the vendor for unsupported machines (oh, you wanted a SPARC chipset version, we don't do that .... erm, what I I holding in my hand then that has SPARC written on it?)
In the end we were left with a number of dissatisfied customers, some running on evaluation versions becasue we couldn't install license keys, and my boss was left looking like an incompetant moron (hmm, wonder why).
His solution? Sell the software package to a small software house, and me with it. I found out about this on monday morning as I was about to leave the house to go to work and my P45 arrived (the form you get in the UK when you leave a job). Needless to say I wasn't happy when I arrived at the office and ther might have been some unpleasant things said.
In the end I had a look at the new place but the commute was too much and they weren't offering anything extra, so I called in and said I'd just take my final month's salary thank you very much and be on my way. The line went quiet. He said he needed me to go out on client sites and troubleshoot until the handover. I pointed out that I had a P45 and didnät work for them any more. He pointed out that under no circumstances would he pay me a month's salary for doing nothing. I pointed out that he was in fact, a complete prat. And bald.
In the end I agreed to work for 2 weeks for contractor rates (which he paid out of petty cash) and he agreed to hide in his office whenever I stomped past his door. That was the last time I was actually employed by a company rather than being a contractor.
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Sounds like a mature way of handling it. I am sure he will be giving you sparkling reviews whenever you need them.
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I got my references from the sales manager instead ;)
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@MasterPlanSoftware said:
Sounds like a mature way of handling it. I am sure he will be giving you sparkling reviews whenever you need them.
Ummm yeah, cuz working with a pink slip in your hand should be expected.
Also, no one cares about references. A potential employer isn't going to call a current boss if you're working and if you're not working you can just give out the number of a friend as your "team lead" and have them give you rave reviews. The only people who have ever called my "references" have been recruiters and I just gave them my friend's phone number. LOL
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@Lysis said:
Ummm yeah, cuz working with a pink slip in your hand should be expected.
That is no excuse for personal insults. A simple "No thanks, but if you would like a schedule of my rates I can send one" would suffice.
@Lysis said:
Also, no one cares about references. A potential employer isn't going to call a current boss if you're working and if you're not working you can just give out the number of a friend as your "team lead" and have them give you rave reviews. The only people who have ever called my "references" have been recruiters and I just gave them my friend's phone number. LOL
McDonalds may take references this loosely... anytime I have ever hired someone I do a little research.
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Though you ended up coming back at contractor rates, which I assume were 4 to 5 times what you were making as a salaried employee... did you end up getting the last month's pay as well? If you were entitled to it, you should have kept fighting.
Either I misread something or your laws are different than ours though. I read that part about getting the form to mean "you're fired as of now", which seems to indicate that you're not entitled to get paid for the rest of the month (unless you have that many unused vacation days to pay out).
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@vt_mruhlin said:
Either I misread something or your laws are different than ours though. I read that part about getting the form to mean "you're fired as of now", which seems to indicate that you're not entitled to get paid for the rest of the month (unless you have that many unused vacation days to pay out).
It depends on the exact details of the contract, but he was probably entitled to be paid up to the end of the month. However, this should have come from the company that gave him the P45, not the new one. (In the event of a part of one company being sold to another, the new company may pay that amount to the old company as part of the deal, but it's the old company who has an obligation to pay the workers - they're the ones you sue if necessary)
That doesn't mean it would have been worth the hassle of extracting that money. Depends what he was getting paid.
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@Lysis said:
Also, no one cares about references.
Companies are not really allowed to give references that say anything more than confirming that the person did work there between two given dates. Any other commentary gets them sued.
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@asuffield said:
@Lysis said:
Also, no one cares about references.
Companies are not really allowed to give references that say anything more than confirming that the person did work there between two given dates. Any other commentary gets them sued.
Disclaimer: I know nothing about UK law, and I don't care as I not commenting about it.
In the US some states have different laws about this, but this would mostly be a company policy. Many larger companies and their HR departments will not share more than a yes or no answer to "Is this applicant eligible for rehire?" This is for many reasons, including HR probably has no idea as to your actual work performance.
It is not illegal for the employer to say no to any of the questions, or even to provide examples. The only time this crosses the boundaries of the law is if it enters into slander or defamation.
All this being said, with all the morons and their frivilous lawsuits that they are quick to jump to, it is a thin line to walk. However, if you have done an appropriate job of documenting anything that occurred with the employee that would make him/her not eligible for rehire, then there is not a lot to worry about besides having your time wasted in court.
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@asuffield said:
@Lysis said:
Also, no one cares about references.
Companies are not really allowed to give references that say anything more than confirming that the person did work there between two given dates. Any other commentary gets them sued.
Yep, which is why references don't mean dick. No one cares about your references and even if they put on the charade of asking for a reference of your boss they can't call him/her.
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@Lysis said:
Yep, which is why references don't mean dick. No one cares about your references and even if they put on the charade of asking for a reference of your boss they can't call him/her.
Simply not true. If you want to live your life by this standard, be my guest. You may learn the hard way someday.
But other people might actually want to receive good references someday.
I have checked references, had my references checked, and had other people call me to check other people's references.
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@MasterPlanSoftware said:
@Lysis said:
Yep, which is why references don't mean dick. No one cares about your references and even if they put on the charade of asking for a reference of your boss they can't call him/her.
Simply not true. If you want to live your life by this standard, be my guest. You may learn the hard way someday.
But other people might actually want to receive good references someday.
I have checked references, had my references checked, and had other people call me to check other people's references.
Agreed, I have had references calls myself.
However, if you had a bad falling out with your last job, then don't leave them as references in your resume. As simple as that.
In todays day and age, all a recruiter can really do with a reference call is confirm that the employee did work at that company, and sometimes confirm a ballpark of former salary. Most recruiters are smart enough to not ask for reason of termination etc.
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@MasterPlanSoftware said:
@Lysis said:
Yep, which is why references don't mean dick. No one cares about your references and even if they put on the charade of asking for a reference of your boss they can't call him/her.
Simply not true. If you want to live your life by this standard, be my guest. You may learn the hard way someday.
But other people might actually want to receive good references someday.
I have checked references, had my references checked, and had other people call me to check other people's references.
l2comprehend. I never said that "no one ever CALLS references." I said no one cares. I won't learn the lesson because I give out the number to my friends and yes, they have been called and of course give raving reviews. Good interview + passing some stupid brainbench > references. Any employer with a modicum of intelligence knows that the references given are someone who will give out a GOOD reference. Who gives out the name of the last boss after stealing 10 laptops and pissing on the boss' door? If you are dumb enough to give that person as a reference you shouldn't be hired for being dumb not for being a thief.
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@Jonathan Holland said:
@MasterPlanSoftware said:
@Lysis said:
Yep, which is why references don't mean dick. No one cares about your references and even if they put on the charade of asking for a reference of your boss they can't call him/her.
Simply not true. If you want to live your life by this standard, be my guest. You may learn the hard way someday.
But other people might actually want to receive good references someday.
I have checked references, had my references checked, and had other people call me to check other people's references.
Agreed, I have had references calls myself.
However, if you had a bad falling out with your last job, then don't leave them as references in your resume. As simple as that.
In todays day and age, all a recruiter can really do with a reference call is confirm that the employee did work at that company, and sometimes confirm a ballpark of former salary. Most recruiters are smart enough to not ask for reason of termination etc.
The simple (and completely legitimate) questions:
1) Would you rehire this person?
2) Would you enthusiastically rehire this person?
Will usually give someone more than enough information. In addition, if the old employer responds with "Are you kidding me? He crashed our company vehicle into a tree while driving drunk!" he is completely within his rights as long as the information is fact. Same goes for "I would not rehire him, when his employment was terminated he got angry and made a scene in front of our office and made personal insults against me. He is no longer welcome here.", as long as it happened.
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Also depends on when he was hired relative to the pay period. If he had to wait 2-3 weeks to get his first paycheck, then yes, he prolly should have already earned the rest of the month.
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@Jonathan Holland said:
@MasterPlanSoftware said:
@Lysis said:
Yep, which is why references don't mean dick. No one cares about your references and even if they put on the charade of asking for a reference of your boss they can't call him/her.
Simply not true. If you want to live your life by this standard, be my guest. You may learn the hard way someday.
But other people might actually want to receive good references someday.
I have checked references, had my references checked, and had other people call me to check other people's references.
I had a recruiter call my friend (my "boss" + technical reference) and ask something about strongest traits vs weakest traits. LOL References are funny!
Agreed, I have had references calls myself.
However, if you had a bad falling out with your last job, then don't leave them as references in your resume. As simple as that.
In todays day and age, all a recruiter can really do with a reference call is confirm that the employee did work at that company, and sometimes confirm a ballpark of former salary. Most recruiters are smart enough to not ask for reason of termination etc.
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@Lysis said:
@MasterPlanSoftware said:
@Lysis said:
Yep, which is why references don't mean dick. No one cares about your references and even if they put on the charade of asking for a reference of your boss they can't call him/her.
Simply not true. If you want to live your life by this standard, be my guest. You may learn the hard way someday.
But other people might actually want to receive good references someday.
I have checked references, had my references checked, and had other people call me to check other people's references.
l2comprehend. I never said that "no one ever CALLS references." I said no one cares. I won't learn the lesson because I give out the number to my friends and yes, they have been called and of course give raving reviews. Good interview + passing some stupid brainbench > references. Any employer with a modicum of intelligence knows that the references given are someone who will give out a GOOD reference. Who gives out the name of the last boss after stealing 10 laptops and pissing on the boss' door? If you are dumb enough to give that person as a reference you shouldn't be hired for being dumb not for being a thief.
I have made the decision to not hire people before based on their references not being employers or in a position where I would respect their decision.
It is pretty easy to figure out if you suspect the reference is just a friend.
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@Lysis said:
@Jonathan Holland said:
@MasterPlanSoftware said:
@Lysis said:
Yep, which is why references don't mean dick. No one cares about your references and even if they put on the charade of asking for a reference of your boss they can't call him/her.
Simply not true. If you want to live your life by this standard, be my guest. You may learn the hard way someday.
But other people might actually want to receive good references someday.
I have checked references, had my references checked, and had other people call me to check other people's references.
I had a recruiter call my friend (my "boss" + technical reference) and ask something about strongest traits vs weakest traits. LOL References are funny!
Agreed, I have had references calls myself.
However, if you had a bad falling out with your last job, then don't leave them as references in your resume. As simple as that.
In todays day and age, all a recruiter can really do with a reference call is confirm that the employee did work at that company, and sometimes confirm a ballpark of former salary. Most recruiters are smart enough to not ask for reason of termination etc.
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@MasterPlanSoftware said:
@Lysis said:
@MasterPlanSoftware said:
@Lysis said:
Yep, which is why references don't mean dick. No one cares about your references and even if they put on the charade of asking for a reference of your boss they can't call him/her.
Simply not true. If you want to live your life by this standard, be my guest. You may learn the hard way someday.
But other people might actually want to receive good references someday.
I have checked references, had my references checked, and had other people call me to check other people's references.
l2comprehend. I never said that "no one ever CALLS references." I said no one cares. I won't learn the lesson because I give out the number to my friends and yes, they have been called and of course give raving reviews. Good interview + passing some stupid brainbench > references. Any employer with a modicum of intelligence knows that the references given are someone who will give out a GOOD reference. Who gives out the name of the last boss after stealing 10 laptops and pissing on the boss' door? If you are dumb enough to give that person as a reference you shouldn't be hired for being dumb not for being a thief.
I have made the decision to not hire people before based on their references not being employers or in a position where I would respect their decision.
It is pretty easy to figure out if you suspect the reference is just a friend.
It would be easy to tell if the friend isn't technical. For clarification, my friends both worked with me at my previous company. My boss no longer works there. So really, all someone can do is call and verify the name of my boss and that he really was my supervisor. Now, my one friend becomes "my boss" and my other friend is my coworker/technical reference (which is actually true). Voila! References!
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@vt_mruhlin said:
Though you ended up coming back at contractor rates, which I assume were 4 to 5 times what you were making as a salaried employee... did you end up getting the last month's pay as well? If you were entitled to it, you should have kept fighting.
Either I misread something or your laws are different than ours though. I read that part about getting the form to mean "you're fired as of now", which seems to indicate that you're not entitled to get paid for the rest of the month (unless you have that many unused vacation days to pay out).
Didn't get the month's salary - I took legal advice and although I was entitled to it it would have been so much hassle that it just wasn't worth it. Besides I'd already beeen offered a contract abroad by then ;)
Boss's argument was that "you're not fired, I just sold you".
Oh, great, thanks. That really helps ;)
