The most headache-less path to Web Development?



  • Well, so far I have been most impressed by ASP.NET.

    Sure, I know my HTML and JavaScript, but the Web Scripting approach of mingling HTML and logic... Just does not appeal to me. Also it seems to me that the community of ASP.NET is more "professional", as they teach you more about best practises and stuff.

    I guess the only real drawback is that ASP.NET is Windows-only, that kind of sucks, as most of the web runs on Apache.



  • @Ice^^Heat said:

    Well, so far I have been most impressed by ASP.NET.

    Sure, I know my HTML and JavaScript, but the Web Scripting approach of mingling HTML and logic... Just does not appeal to me. Also it seems to me that the community of ASP.NET is more "professional", as they teach you more about best practises and stuff.

    I guess the only real drawback is that ASP.NET is Windows-only, that kind of sucks, as most of the web runs on Apache.

    It's Windows-only if you ignore Mono... sure

    And, the beauty of web sites is that it doesn't matter what the client is using, they can still use your site*... by extension, it doesn't matter what 'other sites' are running, just your site. Paul Graham is happy to talk about how they created a custom language on top of Lisp for ViaWeb that let them be much more responsive to adding features. Sure, it wasn't the fastest thing out there.. and of course only their servers could run the software.. but none of that mattered because it only had to run on their software.

    So, stay away from the super-cheap hosting plans that do PHP-only and you'll be fine.

     Or, go play with Java instead. Their community is just as "professional" and, imho, probably actually more likely to have fewer people willing to lead you astray with bad practices. JSP, especially if you combine it with a framework like struts, will do wonders for separating your application concerns.

     

    *) Assuming you're not a bonehead and actually give some thought to accessibility.



  • @TheBigYin said:

    Coo, SQL not a language then?  I spend at least half of my time debugging TSQL or PLSQL and it certainly is one.

    I just looked it up.... SQL stands for "Structured Queries are for Losers", not "Structured Query Language" like I always thought....

    Given your terse statement that you spend quite a bit of time debugging TSQL and PLSQL and that is proof that SQL is a language... I'd be forced to believe that SQL is a language spec and you are actually spending a lot of time with actual languages that are based, loosely, on the SQL language spec (I know from experience that TSQL and PLSQL share almost nothing in common)



  • MONO, it sounds nice and all. But I am not so sure about it since it is not supported by Microsoft. Maybe I should play around with it some day and see what it does.

    On a ASP.NET forum people were hoping that LAMM (Linux, Apache, MySQL, Mono) would takeover LAMP. But they said that it is not likely.

    MONO is not in Microsoft's best interest is it?

    And when all else fails, I guess I could always build my own "CGI-BIN" thingie in C++ ;) Whoops, gotta learn pointers first.



  • @Ice^^Heat said:

    MONO, it sounds nice and all. But I am not so sure about it since it is not supported by Microsoft. Maybe I should play around with it some day and see what it does.

    On a ASP.NET forum people were hoping that LAMM (Linux, Apache, MySQL, Mono) would takeover LAMP. But they said that it is not likely.

    MONO is not in Microsoft's best interest is it?

    And when all else fails, I guess I could always build my own "CGI-BIN" thingie in C++ ;) Whoops, gotta learn pointers first.

    Actually the best replacement for LAMP would be another LAMP (Linux, Apache, Mono, PostgreSQL).


  • What are exactly the benefits of PostgresSQL over MySQL?



  • ah MySQL has no Stored Procedures... WTF?

    http://builder.com.com/5100-6388-1050671.html

     

    Man, a lot more features, looks nice. And I always thought Open Source sucked because of the PHP & MySQL stuff...

    Ignorant as I am, OS has a lot more to offer than PHP & MySQL.



  • @Ice^^Heat said:

    ah MySQL has no Stored Procedures... WTF?

    http://builder.com.com/5100-6388-1050671.html

     

    Man, a lot more features, looks nice. And I always thought Open Source sucked because of the PHP & MySQL stuff...

    Ignorant as I am, OS has a lot more to offer than PHP & MySQL.

    MySQL is still missing a large number of key database features that many would regard as pretty important (e.g. not destroying your data). Just google for "MySQL gotchas|flaws|limitations|bugs, MySQL vs Postre/SQL Server/Oracle/DB2, "WTF has MySQL done to my data????", and so on. MySQL is best viewed as a way to replace text files rather than a competitor to actual database systems. 



  • @Ice^^Heat said:

    ah MySQL has no Stored Procedures... WTF?

    http://builder.com.com/5100-6388-1050671.html

     

    I don't use MySQL, but I'm pretty sure more recent versions (last couple of years) have stored procedures.  The linked article is 5 years old.  Having said that, Postgresql is probably still a better alternative.
     



  • It depends mainly on the skill level of the guys who will be doing the work.  For people with little experience but lots of enthusiasm, PHP is the quickest way to get started.  For very senior coders, JBoss Seam + EJB3 is the obvious choice, but that would be a total nightmare (impossible) for someone who is inexperienced.  Other options, like Ruby on Rails, JSPs, etc, are in between.

    I'm attracted to the idea of using Resin's Caucho system so I can combine both PHP and Java, and let less-senior people do the display side of things in PHP, and the senior Java-skilled people use real enterprise Java to do the DB side of things, and it all runs on one server.  That's cool.



  • I agree with those who said start with HTML and Javascript. You'll find that there is quite a bit to learn there, and eventually will lead you to some natural problems: specifically you'll want to do something that your current choice of language either doesn't do or doesn't do well. From there you can choose what sort of platform or language appeals to you.

    Myself, I am a .NET coder (specifically C#) because I find it to be a language I click well with and the .NET framework continues to improve and evolve. Don't spend forever going against the grain...I believe you will know rather quickly whether or not you like the language you're working with. I would highly advise experimenting with a few languages; a lot of tools are free now (Visual Studio Express and SQL Server immediately spring to mind) and the resources to learn are better than they've ever been.

    Either way, have fun with it. Some people can take it very, very seriously (and rightly so in some cases) but don't get stuck doing something you don't enjoy.
     



  • @Alan said:

    Either way, have fun with it. Some people can take it very, very seriously (and rightly so in some cases) but don't get stuck doing something you don't enjoy.
    Like terrible WTF'ed badly non-architected applications??

    Web Development per se isn't a headache, it is the insane amount of limitations an business environment creates.



  • I've been lucky so far in that my last 5 years have spent working at two companies that both let me take the time to do things correctly and without crippling schedules; in both cases the previous individual in my position wasn't....let's just say "competent." So I don't consider my business environments to be headaches for web development. My employers trust me because I've provided quality work and improved the way things operate. Being in a business environment doesn't have to be hell. I would highly advise anyone in that sort of situation to get out...there are plenty of great companies out there that foster a creative and proper environment. I'm actually rather happy with my companies. And I should clarify: I'm not saying that it's not a job to be taken seriously, I'm just saying that if this person's not enjoying themselves and feeling that what they're doing is rewarding they should step back and evaluate it.

    If all else fails, start your own company. It's never been easier than it is now. For a lot of digital products you need almost zero startup capital.
     



  • My tips;

     

    1) Pay for a decent web designer... never let a developer design!

    2)  Do intranets if u can, that way you know which browser to develop for *

    if you can't do intranets...

    3) convince your boss to develop to current web standards 

    4) once you've done that, develop using FF. I would say 'develop using the most web standard compliant browser you can', but FF is close and has nice tools like the web dev toolbar

    5) Validate your work

     
    Icing; 

    6) google 'semantic web'

    7) look into accessibility

     

    * This is the lazy option. The worst thing about web dev is cross browser support. Let me take this opportunity to stick a sharp stick in Internet Explorer's eyes. However, sometimes I'd rather code for IE only than IE + Good Browsers. Ideally you'd ignore #2, and just make Web Standard Websites.

     

    best of luck 

     




  •  

    Try this book by Deitel & Deitel. Personally I love their textbooks.

    http://www.deitel.com/Books/InternetWebScripting/InternetWorldWideWebHowtoProgram4e/tabid/2048/Default.aspx




  • Four threads so far in which Bob's resurrected an old thread and plugged some sort of book. What gives?

    Would Bob pass a Turing test?



  • @dhromed said:

    Four threads so far in which Bob's resurrected an old thread and plugged some sort of book. What gives?

    Would Bob pass a Turing test?

    I'm thinking that he would test positive for marketdroid. Probably one of the guerilla marketing companies.



  • @asuffield said:

    @dhromed said:
    Would Bob pass a Turing test?

    I'm thinking that he would test positive for marketdroid.

    So that's a No, then. 

     


Log in to reply