Assault WTF

boomzilla

Right or wrong, off color jokes aren't rape. It's kind of sad that the tasteless and inappropriate jokes seemed to get more play than than this atrocity (possibly NSFW details at link).

At some point, it was suggested that I do a body shot. I’ve never done one in my life but at the insistence of many people, attendees and bartenders I decided to lay on the bar.
...
Following the shot:

[NSFW DETAILS]

Basically, having fun at a conference turned into sexual assault and perhaps not surprisingly the attacked party ended up much worse off than the attacker (though this is just her side of it, of course, so I'm assuming that's true, but he apparently wrote a funemployment blog post, so my respect for him was reduced even more).

Ben L.

@boomzilla said:

Right or wrong,

@boomzilla said:

rape

Cue misinterpretation shitstorm v2.1

error

mikeTheLiar

That's...fucked up. Way to be a downer this morning.

Helix

Why do people think this happens more in tech industry then any other?

Travel, marketing, entertainment industry is rife with this sort of stuff.

boomzilla

This bit struck me as a bit of a WTF:

Joe began to start rubbing my back and kissing my forehead (let me say this is not uncommon behavior between me and men I consider close friends. I have a close relationship with a lot of my former EdgeCase coworkers
...
Hugs hand forehead kisses have always been a big part of my relationships with my co-workers.

(SPOILER ALERT) I'm not a touchy feely person, but this just seems like a bad idea. I'm certainly not blaming the victim, but this is one of those sorts of things that probably makes assholes think their behavior is not unwanted. And I think if I had a coworker who did this sort of thing to me, I'd feel harassed by her.

boomzilla

@Helix said:

Why do people think this happens more in tech industry then any other?

Travel, marketing, entertainment industry is rife with this sort of stuff.

Yeah, the only reason I can think of is that there aren't as many women, so maybe proportionately, more women in tech experience it than in other industries, even though it's smaller in absolute numbers. The bottom line is that you're going to get it in any environment where men and women are present.

Helix

"Side Bar" WTF

Because more things make us ask WTF than just code

Ronald

That part really annoyed me:

@Cry baby said:

That it wasn’t simply enough to finally, after 10 months have the courage to say Joe O’Brien sexually assaulted me.

That's not "courage". That's a mix of petty revenge and self-pity.

One time I was stabbed just above the kidney and my wallet was stolen. This happened in early afternoon on a busy street in Honduras, and the first cop who came by took my watch and left me there in a pool of blood. Did I write a long blog post telling my sob story and expecting public sympathy, under the pretense of raising awareness about an issue that everybody is already aware of? No. I moved on.

Did the mugger and the crooked cop stole more from me than a wallet and watch? Can I say I'm a different person now because of them? Maybe, but one thing is sure, I'm not a victim nor a survivor not a fucking wuss who uses a single incident to justify every problem at home or at work.

Incidents like that happen, tough luck. If I could go back in time and I had the opportunity to choose I would rather have the guy grab my ass than stab me, but of course I'm not a fragile and bitter web designer with no clue about life.

PJH

@DrPepper said:

OK, why is this on TDWTF? Certainly it deserves discussion, but I fail to see any "Curious Perversions in Information Technology" in this discussion.

You don't think body shots at a Ruby convention isn't a "Curious Perversion" in "IT"?

Master_Chief

@Ronald said:

That part really annoyed me:

@Cry baby said:
That it wasn’t simply enough to finally, after 10 months have the courage to say Joe O’Brien sexually assaulted me.

That's not "courage". That's a mix of petty revenge and self-pity.
One time I was stabbed just above the kidney and my wallet was stolen. This happened in early afternoon on a busy street in Honduras, and the first cop who came by took my watch and left me there in a pool of blood. Did I write a long blog post telling my sob story and expecting public sympathy, under the pretense of raising awareness about an issue that everybody is already aware of? No. I moved on.
Did the mugger and the crooked cop stole more from me than a wallet and watch? Can I say I'm a different person now because of them? Maybe, but one thing is sure, I'm not a victim nor a survivor not a fucking wuss who uses a single incident to justify every problem at home or at work.
Incidents like that happen, tough luck. If I could go back in time and I had the opportunity to choose I would rather have the guy grab my ass than stab me, but of course I'm not a fragile and bitter web designer with no clue about life.

Speaking as a web designer, if someone tried to get my wallet or my ass, they'd have a .45 sized hole in them. Who's fragile? :P

mikeTheLiar

@PJH said:

@DrPepper said:
OK, why is this on TDWTF? Certainly it deserves discussion, but I fail to see any "Curious Perversions in Information Technology" in this discussion.
You don't think body shots at a Ruby convention isn't a "Curious Perversion" in "IT"?

I thought that was the joke.

dhromed

@boomzilla said:

I'm certainly not blaming the victim

"I'm not going to say X, but still, X".

Goddamnit.

dhromed

@Ronald said:

That's not "courage". That's a mix of petty revenge and self-pity.

For a little while, I doubted you're a full-on sociopath with no concept of human emotions, but it's pretty unambiguous now.

Nexzus

@dhromed said:

@boomzilla said:
I'm certainly not blaming the victim

"I'm not going to say X, but still, X".

Goddamnit.

Whenever these kinds of threads popup on any discussion forum, many people seem to forget that there is a line between "blaming the victim" and "should have used better judgement" - and that applies to both genders. It sucks that society (or human nature) has forced us to make that line, but it is what it is.

boomzilla

@dhromed said:

@boomzilla said:
I'm certainly not blaming the victim

"I'm not going to say X, but still, X".

Goddamnit.

Fuck you and your lack of reading comprehension. If someone does something stupid (or wrong or whatever), they did something stupid (or wrong or whatever) and noticing that isn't the same as blaming them. Why don't people get all in a huff at the suggestion that you shouldn't leave your keys in your car if you don't want it to get stolen?

If I walk through South Central L.A. with a Confederate flag t-shirt (or maybe a SF Giants hat, these days), the dudes who beat me senseless are responsible for their actions, but I was doing something really dumb to put myself into the situation. That's not a direct analogy, and they might have beaten me even if I hadn't worn the shirt, just like he might have assaulted her if she hadn't hugged and given him hand to forehead kisses. But if I'd just stayed away from the dangerous neighborhood or she hadn't agreed to the body shot, we'd both be better off, and would have prevented the situation. Who knows how many previous times such a thing might have happened, but didn't because she was able to resist or avoid putting herself in a compromising position?

Ronald

@dhromed said:

@Ronald said:
That's not "courage". That's a mix of petty revenge and self-pity.

For a little while, I doubted you're a full-on sociopath with no concept of human emotions, but it's pretty unambiguous now.

I have a pretty good concept of human emotions, which is why I can spot a cry-baby when I see one. On a daily basis people are exposed to significantly worse situations and don't make a fuss about it. Overreaction is a symptom of someone living in a cocoon all her life and the concept of "courage" has nothing to do with someone airing laundry in public. She should go to him, slap him and be done with it. Making a Lifetime movie about such a mundane incident is lame.

If your intent is to immerse yourself in political correctness and fake sympathy then keep going, you are doing pretty well so far.

aapis

I think there is a false dichotomy at play in regards to those slut walks. The attitude is very much the old "if you're not with us you're against us" and it really doesn't do anything to further the righteous cause of preventing sexual assault/discrimination. Anyone who has any objection to someone dressing, intentionally, like a street whore is automatically aligning themselves with rapists and abusers? Fuck that. Fuck allllll of that.

This story is horrific, though not unique. Personally, I don't believe there is a way to stop this kind of thing from happening.

Ronald

@aapis said:

I think there is a false dichotomy at play in regards to those slut walks. The attitude is very much the old "if you're not with us you're against us" and it really doesn't do anything to further the righteous cause of preventing sexual assault/discrimination. Anyone who has any objection to someone dressing, intentionally, like a street whore is automatically aligning themselves with rapists and abusers? Fuck that. Fuck allllll of that.

This story is horrific, though not unique. Personally, I don't believe there is a way to stop this kind of thing from happening.

When I was in college there was a French guy in my study group. A few times as he saw girls dressed like whores walking by, he said out loud: "in Paris if a girl was wearing zat she would get raped in ze parking lot and ze crowd would cheer".

Ah ces Parisiens.

dhromed

@Ronald said:

She should go to him, slap him and be done with it.

It's weird comments like this that make me think you're some kind of robot. Alternatively, so spectacularly arrogant that your own experiences and opinions represent the One True Way. That would be more human, though!

@Ronald said:

mundane

Leaving my keys in my car is mundane. Being assaulted is not.

@Ronald said:

political correctness

There's no such thing as political correctness. That's just a handy label to shoot down anything that, to you, resembles oversensitivity to someone else's situation.

dhromed

@boomzilla said:

If someone does something stupid, noticing that isn't the same as blaming them.

That's... blaming.

Ronald

@dhromed said:

Leaving my keys in my car is mundane. Being assaulted is not.

When you say that a girl who was inappropriately fondled by her boss (furthermore: in the context of heavy drinking where she agreed to let him do body shots on her) was "assaulted", you basically insult every girl in history that had to suffer an actual assault.

Maybe if you took an extended vacation in a correctional facility in the USA you could start to revisit your definition of "assault".

The only thing more pathetic than a vengeful bitch is a limpdick moron defending her (i.e.: you).

dhromed

@aapis said:

Anyone who has any objection to someone dressing, intentionally, like a street whore is automatically aligning themselves with rapists and abusers? Fuck that. Fuck allllll of that.

It's very good that you feel insulted by the mere thought of being associated with scum, but try focusing that energy onto the actual scum instead of the ones who are bringing the problem to light.

dhromed

@Ronald said:

The only thing more pathetic than a vengeful bitch is a limpdick moron defending her (i.e.: you).

I win!

$$$$$

Ben L.

@dhromed said:

@Ronald said:
The only thing more pathetic than a vengeful bitch is a limpdick moron defending her (i.e.: you).

I win!
$$$$$

I miss morbiuswilters/dhromed tag-team dick jokes.

Ben L.

@aapis said:

if you're not with us you're against us

P(x, y) = "x is with y"
Q(x, y) = "x is against y"
¬P(you, us) → Q(you, us) given
¬¬P(you, us) ∨ Q(you, us) law of implications
P(you, us) ∨ Q(you, us) double negation
Q(you, us) ∨ P(you, us) commutative property
¬¬Q(you, us) ∨ P(you, us) double negation
¬Q(you, us) → P(you, us) law of implications
∴ "if you're not with us you're against us" is logically equivalent to "if you're not against us you're with us"

Ronald

@Ben L. said:

@aapis said:

if you're not with us you're against us

P(x, y) = "x is with y"
Q(x, y) = "x is against y"
¬P(you, us) → Q(you, us) given
¬¬P(you, us) ∨ Q(you, us) law of implications
P(you, us) ∨ Q(you, us) double negation
Q(you, us) ∨ P(you, us) commutative property
¬¬Q(you, us) ∨ P(you, us) double negation
¬Q(you, us) → P(you, us) law of implications
∴ "if you're not with us you're against us" is logically equivalent to "if you're not against us you're with us"

error

@Ronald said:

@Ben L. said:

@aapis said:

if you're not with us you're against us

P(x, y) = "x is with y"
Q(x, y) = "x is against y"
¬P(you, us) → Q(you, us) given
¬¬P(you, us) ∨ Q(you, us) law of implications
P(you, us) ∨ Q(you, us) double negation
Q(you, us) ∨ P(you, us) commutative property
¬¬Q(you, us) ∨ P(you, us) double negation
¬Q(you, us) → P(you, us) law of implications
∴ "if you're not with us you're against us" is logically equivalent to "if you're not against us you're with us"

Ronald

@joe.edwards said:

It's a win-win situation: one had a quick feel, the other one has something to blame for her failure at work and at home (plus a nice story to increase traffic to her blog).

boomzilla

@dhromed said:

@boomzilla said:
If someone does something stupid, noticing that isn't the same as blaming them.
That's... blaming.

For doing something stupid? Yes. For the actions of others? No. I'm not sure why this is so hard.

boomzilla

@dhromed said:

There's no such thing as political correctness. That's just a handy label to shoot down anything that, to you, resembles oversensitivity to someone else's situation.

No, political correctness the original oversensitivity. Anyways, why would you say it's not a thing and then tell us about what you think the thing it is?

Ben L.

@boomzilla said:

@dhromed said:
There's no such thing as political correctness. That's just a handy label to shoot down anything that, to you, resembles oversensitivity to someone else's situation.

No, political correctness the original oversensitivity. Anyways, why would you say it's not a thing and then tell us about what you think the thing it is?

Political correctness is a pretty great thing.

@Master Chief said:

Speaking as a web designer, if someone tried to get my wallet or my ass, they'd have a .45 sized hole in them.

I wasn't aware that .45es are standard issue for web designers these days. Man, competiton in that field must be tough...

jes

@Ronald said:

When you say that a girl who was inappropriately fondled by her boss (furthermore: in the context of heavy drinking where she agreed to let him do body shots on her) was "assaulted", you basically insult every girl in history that had to suffer an actual assault.

And in a single posting you demnstrate what a glaring lack of ethics you suffer from. "she shouldn't complain about sexual harrassment because there are even worse things that happen".

Maybe if one visits a correctional facility in the USA one could broaden one's concept of the varieties of assaults, it won't negate the reality of ones that didn't land someone in prison but are still assaults.

The only thing pathetic here is the crap you have posted. You are a WTF, as in "WTF is wrong with you?"

mod: added somewhat relevant quote bit. -dh

dhromed

@boomzilla said:

Anyways, why would you say it's not a thing and then tell us about what you think the thing it is?

It's a handy catchphrase to discredit statements that one person subjectively perceives as "too sensitive". It's not actually a real thing that objectively refers to a special set of statements. We all "know" what PC means, but in reality it's just as devoid of meaning as the flowery language often used to poorly describe sound quality.

boomzilla

@dhromed said:

@boomzilla said:
Anyways, why would you say it's not a thing and then tell us about what you think the thing it is?

It's a handy catchphrase to discredit statements that one person subjectively perceives as "too sensitive". It's not actually a real thing that objectively refers to a special set of statements. We all "know" what PC means, but in reality it's just as devoid of meaning as the flowery language often used to poorly describe sound quality.

I think the definition at wikipedia is better than yours:

Political correctness (adjectivally, politically correct; both forms commonly abbreviated to PC) is a term that refers to language, ideas, or policies that address perceived or actual discrimination against or alienation of politically, socially or economically disadvantaged groups. The term usually implies that these social considerations are excessive or of a purely "political" nature.

It started with the communists and their party line and has changed over time. But it's a real thing. And it's more than oversensitivity. It's trying to exploit our sympathy by being overly sensitive for political reasons.

dhromed

@boomzilla said:

And it's more than oversensitivity. It's trying to exploit our sympathy by being overly sensitive for political reasons.

At some point in colloquial usage, it shedded the political meaning and thus became empty rhetoric.

Unless you're suggesting that ~~robot~~ Ronald implied that I was trying to do nothing but earn social brownie points on this forum (i.e. political), which is another bit of evidence to me that Ronals has trouble accurately sizing up other people's motivations.

Anyway, by mentioning the body shot and equating it with "stupid" in a subsequent analogy, you were victim blaming. Stop that. Start piling on that Joe character instead. Otherwise, say nothing.

boomzilla

@dhromed said:

@boomzilla said:
And it's more than oversensitivity. It's trying to exploit our sympathy by being overly sensitive for political reasons.

At some point in colloquial usage, it shedded the political meaning and thus became empty rhetoric.

Maybe in your neck of the woods. It's definitely not empty rhetoric here.

@dhromed said:

Unless you're suggesting that ~~robot~~ Ronald implied that I was trying to do nothing but earn social brownie points on this forum (i.e. political), which is another bit of evidence to me that Ronals has trouble accurately sizing up other people's motivations.

I was just arguing about political correctness as a concept, not about Ronald's use of it.

@dhromed said:

Anyway, by mentioning the body shot and equating it with "stupid" in a subsequent analogy, you were victim blaming. Stop that. Start piling on that Joe character instead. Otherwise, say nothing.

Then I guess "victim blaming" is just empty rhetoric. I will absolutely not back down on saying that doing body shots in public, with coworkers, is stupid.

Because someone is a victim, do you think there was nothing they could have done differently to have prevented their victimhood? Because someone is a victim, can we not learn from their mistakes? If her wallet had been stolen instead of having been assaulted, would your answers to those questions have been different? I don't understand why I should "say nothing." That is another stupid thing. Would it be OK if I were talking to my daughter about situations like these instead of discussing it on a forum?

I think I piled on him plenty, and considering that she's gone public and his internet presence is going away, I think he's getting his delayed punishment.

dhromed

@boomzilla said:

Because someone is a victim, can we not learn from their mistakes?

By going after the perpetrators more actively, sure. Not by spotlighting the wrongdoings of the victim.

@boomzilla said:

I will absolutely not back down on saying that doing body shots in public, with coworkers, is stupid.

I think body shots are stupid as well, because they lower the standard of the human race and I'm a big ol' softy for things like our performance as a species on the cosmic stage. Well. Thin ol' softy. Other times I think maybe I should just lighten up. I spend time playing RPGs* for fun. Same kind of stupid, maybe. But it's a different discussion. Instead, you mention it explicitly, and place it here, in this context, as if doing this thing opened a direct and guaranteed route to assault. Which is crap. So if you're not victim blaming, I don't understand why you mentioned it at all, which is what I mean by saying nothing.

@boomzilla said:

If her wallet had been stolen instead of having been assaulted, would your answers to those questions have been different?

If I leave my wallet out, there's a chance it gets stolen. So I don't leave it out. But leaving my wallet out is not an invitation to take it, and as my sad festival experience in another country illustrated, it's clearly not a direct route to losing the wallet entirely: my lost wallet showed up a few weeks later in my mail box, with a note from the police.

Losing my wallet was stupid because I should have buttoned up my cargo pants pockets more carefully, I couldn't enjoy the festival as much and had to bum off my friends. Not because it would get stolen.

*) rocket-propelled grenades. pchooooo

Ronald

@jes said:

@Ronald said:
When you say that a girl who was inappropriately fondled by her boss (furthermore: in the context of heavy drinking where she agreed to let him do body shots on her) was "assaulted", you basically insult every girl in history that had to suffer an actual assault.

And in a single posting you demnstrate what a glaring lack of ethics you suffer from. "she shouldn't complain about sexual harrassment because there are even worse things that happen".

Maybe if one visits a correctional facility in the USA one could broaden one's concept of the varieties of assaults, it won't negate the reality of ones that didn't land someone in prison but are still assaults.

The only thing pathetic here is the crap you have posted. You are a WTF, as in "WTF is wrong with you?"

mod: added somewhat relevant quote bit. -dh

I don't think you know what "ethics" mean. Also I never said she should not complain, I said she should have complained to him (or to the police), not post the story on her blog 10 months later and blame all her failures on that incident.

As for the word "assault", could you please indicate which of the two definitions found in the dictionary applies to this situation:

A violent physical or verbal attack; a military attack usually involving direct combat with enemy forces; a concerted effort (as to reach a goal or defeat an adversary).
a threat or attempt to inflict offensive physical contact or bodily harm on a person (as by lifting a fist in a threatening manner) that puts the person in immediate danger of or in apprehension of such harm or contact

Words have a meaning. She was possibly molested. Not assaulted.

Edit: To facilitate the discussion, here is the relevant definition of molestation: to touch (someone) in a sexual and improper way; to force physical and usually sexual contact on. See the difference?

Ben L.

@Ronald said:

She was ... Not assaulted.

Read up. Words can modify meanings of other words.

mikeTheLiar

@Ben L. said:

@Ronald said:
She was ... Not assaulted.

Read up. Words can modify meanings of other words.

Ah, it's Ben L.'s relevant and useful post of the month. I was waiting.

dhromed

@Ronald said:

Words have a meaning. She was possibly molested. Not assaulted.

Would it make you happy if I just went replace('assault', 'molest') in my posts?

boomzilla

@dhromed said:

@boomzilla said:
Because someone is a victim, can we not learn from their mistakes?

By going after the perpetrators more actively, sure. Not by spotlighting the wrongdoings of the victim.

I think that you don't really believe this. The first part doesn't make sense. What do we learn by going after the perpetrators?

We can certainly learn from perpetrators. Studies have been done, and criminals repeatedly tell us that they like to go after easy targets. One thing that makes them believe people aren't easy targets is whether they appear to be aware of their environment. According to what you wrote above, you would have us believe that we should ignore the fact that the lady whose purse was snatched was engrossed in doing something on her phone as she walked down the street, and encourage others to pay more attention to their surroundings than their phones. This is unacceptable, because we're now blaming the victim.

I totally don't understand why people think this way. It's deliberately making yourself (and maybe others) stupid and vulnerable.

@dhromed said:

But it's a different discussion. Instead, you mention it explicitly, and place it here, in this context, as if doing this thing opened a direct and guaranteed route to assault. Which is crap. So if you're not victim blaming, I don't understand why you mentioned it at all, which is what I mean by saying nothing.

It's not out of context at all. I will admit, if by "victim blaming," you mean saying that, "the victim did some things that put her into a compromising situation," then I guess I am victim blaming, and THAT'S A GOOD THING. I'm not shifting any of the responsibility for the perpetrators actions, though, and saying that she shares in the responsibility. But you're saying that we shouldn't say that she did some things that, had she not done them, might have avoided the situation. And these are good things to think about and pass along to others. Why do you hate learning?

Also, I definitely didn't say it was a "direct and guaranteed route to assault." But since the assault happened basically as part of the body shot, she certainly would have avoided that particular incident. Given their relationship and the general drunkenness, it's definitely possible that a similar assault would have happened later that night or at some point in the future. Or it might not have. We don't know.

The problem with the people who scream about blaming the victim is that they're living in a fantasy where all other people are good and act that way. And that even if we have a legal and moral right to do stupid things, it's generally a good idea to be reasonable about reducing vulnerability to the assholes around us. And that looking at the history of those assholes and teaching others to avoid the assholes is a bad thing.

Ben L.

Re: Molest WTF

@dhromed said:

@Ronald said:
Words have a meaning. She was possibly molested. Not molested.

Would it make you happy if I just went replace('molest', 'molest') in my posts?

I think we should work toward stopping the problem of workplace sexual molest!

dhromed

@Ben L. said:

I miss morbiuswilters/dhromed tag-team dick jokes.

Sometimes it's good to talk about things like rational adults, though.

Maybe we shoul'd try that here sometimesBADUMTISH.