DreamSpark, or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love ThePirateBay



  • Say, you're a student (at a WTFU nonetheless, but that's another story), and you've heard that you can get free Windows from DreamSpark (formerly MSDN AA). So here's your not-so-short tutorial to downloading stuff from DreamSpark:<br >

    Step 1: Log in to your student account and click the DreamSpark link. Fair enough.<br >

    Step 2: Find the operating system / app of your choice. So far so good, you can choose almost every MS product you need, including MS-DOS 6.22, Visual Basic 6 and Microsoft AutoCollage. Hell, there's even SongSmith!<br >

    Step 3: Add the product to cart, despite the fact that everything is free and you're not "buying" anything.<br >

    Step 4: After you fill your cart with all the free stuff, check out. Accept the cyrograph, which happily states:<br >

    10. LIMITATION ON AND EXCLUSION OF REMEDIES AND DAMAGES. You can recover from Microsoft and its suppliers only direct

    damages up to U.S. $5.00.

    <br >

    Gee, at least you'll get your 5 bucks if your computer fries. You can get a fully-working 8086 on eBay for that, so no worries!<br >

    Step 5: Review the total (spoiler: it's $0.00)<br >

    Step 6: Fill in your name, surname, and e-mail address, despite the fact that you've just logged in with your student account, which uses your e-mail as a login.<br >

    Step 7: Click the "Start Download" button to start downloading your .ISO file.<br >
    <br >
    <br >
    <br >

    ...ha, you thought it would be that easy? You're obviously not thinking enterprisey enough!<br >

    <br >
    Step 7: Click the "Start download" button to "Get Your Software in 4 Easy Steps".<br >

    Step 8: Download the installer for the downloader.<br >

    Step 9: Run the installer for the downloader. Unless you're currently on Linux/BSD/whatever non-Windows, in which case - no soup for you, because apparently Microsoft thinks that even when downloading Windows, you must be on Windows, because there are no other operating systems, right? So here's your MSI installing an EXE refering to IE6. And if you're able to set wine up to digest this mess, why the hell do you need Windows, anyway?<br >

    Step 10: Download yet another file containing your "order" to feed to the downloader.<br >

    Step 11: Bash your head against the desk upon realizing that your "Secure Download Manager" is a thinly-veiled cover-up for IE6. And the file you downloaded? It's a plain-text URL to a webpage riddled with Active Scripting, which works in IE only. Yeah, apparently Microsoft's idea of "security" are IE6-based scripts. Like if we didn't know how that ended up...<br >

    Step 12: Watch your download bar go to 100%, then back to 0%, because some coder was too lazy to program a "unpacking" state. At this point, you might notice your apps getting unresponsive, SDM blanking to "not responding" state every couple of seconds, your HDD churning like mad and your mouse moving at half a FPS. That's because the "Secure Download Manager", which allegedly is great at downloading files over 2GB, which most browsers allegedly can't take, pushes all that it's downloaded into memory to untar it. Just to illustrate:<br >

    [img]http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/3582/42878203.png[/img]<br >

    The "steep" part is where it's finished processing the downloaded file. Over 1GB of memory freed, which is coincidentally about as much as the Vista DVD image I've been testing the downloader with. When I was downloading Windows 8 (which was about 3GB), SDM almost grinded my computer to a halt - eventually I've been able to run Task Manager and reduce its priority to Below Normal, but it's taken me about 10 minutes with all the stuttering. Hardly a surprise, though - pushing a 3GB file into 2GB physical memory requires a LOT of paging - and try paging when SDM also wants to use the HDD excessively.<br >

    Step 13: Here's your whatever-you-were-downloading. Have fun!<br >
    <br >
    Now, let's compare it to ThePirateBay, shall we?<br >
    Step 1: Download uTorrent.<br >
    Step 2: Install uTorrent.<br >
    Step 3: Go to ThePirateBay.com<br >
    Step 4: Enter "Windows 8" into search bar.<br >
    Step 5: Click the magnet and all the "OK"s you need.<br >
    Step 6: ????<br >
    Step 7: PROFIT!<br >

    And if anyone ever tells me that piracy is bad, I'll have them download the whole MS repository with SDM.



  • So it's ok to pirate because getting the product for free legally is slightly inconvenient. (And frankly I don't believe your story because it's utterly, 100% different, than the process of getting products from either MSDN or Microsoft's employee discount program. Unless it only works that way in countries that use words like "uzycia". Or it happened 8 years ago and you're just now stepping out of the hypersleep pod.)

    Fucking shit the world's full of entitled pricks.



  • [url=http://imageshack.us/a/img405/7687/ex1io.png]Exhibit A: the cart for your free stuff[/url]<br >
    [url=http://imageshack.us/a/img515/6041/ex3z.png]Exhibit B: The Four Easy Steps[/url]<br >
    [url=http://imageshack.us/a/img690/2497/ex4p.png]Exhibit C: the one and only Secure Download Manager[/url] (together with IE "Properties" dialog).<br >
    <br >
    And yes, I live in the country that uses the word "uzycia". Together with "potrzebie" and "kielbasa". Oh, and the bit about TPB was tongue-in-cheek, in case your humor detector malfunctioned.
    <br ><br >
    EDIT: Just noticed - it doesn't really use IE6, it uses whatever IE you have in your system, which might or might not be IE6 (and since you're upgrading your Windows, the chances are good it is). Well, that's something.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    And frankly I don't believe your story because it's utterly, 100% different, than the process of getting products from either MSDN or Microsoft's employee discount program.

    I can attest he is correct (NWTC, Wisconsin.) We use the same system, same fucktarded downloader program. However...

    @blakeyrat said:

    Fucking shit the world's full of entitled pricks.

    Agreed. All in total I've probably gotten a few thousand dollars worth of very useful stuff through DreamSpark (and it's previous program, can't remember the name.) To bitch because they want you to use a download program based in Windows, and use that to justify theft, is asinine. Normally you'd have to shell out a few hundred bucks for most of the OSes I've gotten free (and a lot more for the Server Datacenter edition I have). To the linux people: If you have a linux machine, I guaranteeing you it's also a Windows machine (or could be.) And even more simply, take a hard drive to school, plug it in, and play minecraft for a couple hours in the lab while they download. (I downloaded all mine at school anyway, their Internet speeds were better.)

    Also, I don't think it's trivial to point out that the download program exists solely as an anti-piracy measure, because I garun-fucking-tee if they hosted it via a Torrent or HTTP or FTP link, the first thing you'd do is go to $favorite_board and post saying "LAWL MICROSOFT SO STUPID, CLICK HERE FOR FREE WINDOWS!!)!11" and by continuing to pirate, you ensure they will continue developing new, more inconvenient methods to combat it.

    In short, "They're treating us like animals, so let's shit on the floor" is not a good line of thought.



  • As for the downloader being an anti-piracy measure... well, it's a crappy one at best. You still end up with a perfectly good ISO image of your DVD, and Microsoft still provides you and only you (NOT in the application, mind you, but during the whole "checkout" process) the unique S/N.<br >
    <br >
    And sure, MSDNAA is great, but also unnecessarily convoluted. There really is no point in using this downloader, the whole checkout thing is stupid, and Linux users will have to stand on their heads to make it work - but yes, I like the idea, I'm grateful, I'm just picking on the execution.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    As for the downloader being an anti-piracy measure... well, it's a crappy one at best. You still end up with a perfectly good ISO image of your DVD, and Microsoft still provides you and only you (NOT in the application, mind you, but during the whole "checkout" process) the unique S/N.



    And sure, MSDNAA is great, but also unnecessarily convoluted. There really is no point in using this downloader, the whole checkout thing is stupid, and Linux users will have to stand on their heads to make it work - but yes, I like the idea, I'm grateful, I'm just picking on the execution.

    You're getting their (expensive) products for free. They're asking you to jump through a few hoops in the process. If you have that big of a problem with it where spending hundreds of dollars seems the better option, then I'm sure they won't argue.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    (And frankly I don't believe your story because it's utterly, 100% different, than the process of getting products from either MSDN or Microsoft's employee discount program. Unless it only works that way in countries that use words like "uzycia". Or it happened 8 years ago and you're just now stepping out of the hypersleep pod.)

    Having used Dreamspark, I can confirm that it does use the insipid downloader, however I've had none of the issues that Maciejasjmj has. Specifically:

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    When I was downloading Windows 8 (which was about 3GB), SDM almost grinded my computer to a halt - eventually I've been able to run Task Manager and reduce its priority to Below Normal, but it's taken me about 10 minutes with all the stuttering. Hardly a surprise, though - pushing a 3GB file into 2GB physical memory requires a LOT of paging - and try paging when SDM also wants to use the HDD excessively.

    Never had that problem, it just sits happily in the background doing its thing as I do whatever thing I'm doing, both on my laptop and the crappy gimped i7 machines at uni that they insist upon putting XP on still.

    As for the downloader being crappy, it's not actually Microsoft who are at fault in this case, it's Kivuto (who run the store) who are responsible for it. Interestingly, the VMWare equivalent, also run by them, doesn't use this downloader.


  • @Master Chief said:

    You're getting their (expensive) products for free. They're asking you to jump through a few hoops in the process. If you have that big of a problem with it where spending hundreds of dollars seems the better option, then I'm sure they won't argue.

    <br >
    So you're basically saying, that as long as something's free, we should all just shut up and enjoy it? Is MySQL great because it's free, and we're not allowed to complain? Is IE good because it's free, and the security concerns are just "a few hoops"? If somebody gave you a bag of feces with a gold nugget on the bottom for free, would you happily dig through, or would you just throw it in their face?<br >
    <br >
    Just the sole fact that you're giving something for free is not going to magically win you a die-hard fanbase. It's especially true for Microsoft, and especially true among CS/IT students who use DreamSpark, because they already have a strong bias for Linux. It's MS that needs to try - if you've been a Linux user for quite a while, you're used to free AND quality content. And if your first Windows Experience is having to run to your school with a HDD because the shitty downloader won't run without employing some pretty serious magic - well, that wouldn't turn me to the dark side.<br >
    <br >
    And another thing you're not noticing - TANSTAAFL. Your student license will eventually expire, and the main goal of MSDNAA is to make you realize that you've grown so used to MS products that you'll be willing to spend money to buy them for real. It's not charity, it's an investment - and since they're expecting it to pay back, there's no excuse.<br >
    <br >
    @Douglasaac - how much RAM do you have, and how big were the things you've been downloading? I haven't really had the issue with it as long as it was just downloading, but when it finished and went on to unpack the files, everything just got dumped into memory until it finished its job.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    So it's ok to pirate because getting the product for free legally is slightly inconvenient. (And frankly I don't believe your story because it's utterly, 100% different, than the process of getting products from either MSDN or Microsoft's employee discount program. Unless it only works that way in countries that use words like "uzycia". Or it happened 8 years ago and you're just now stepping out of the hypersleep pod.)

    Fucking shit the world's full of entitled pricks.

    In most cases, getting software legitimately is 1000 times less convienent than pirating. The ONE service that has gotten this right has been Steam, and it's no wonder why I have over 200 games purchased in Steam. When it's a better user experience to pirate, why purchase something legally?



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    @Douglasaac - how much RAM do you have, and how big were the things you've been downloading? I haven't really had the issue with it as long as it was just downloading, but when it finished and went on to unpack the files, everything just got dumped into memory until it finished its job.

    8GB in the laptop, and 3.whateverGB in the gimped uni PC. The last thing I downloaded on the gimped uni machine was Visual Studio 2008, which came in at 3.3GB. Was happily chugging along doing things on the uni PC.

    Also...
    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Bash your head against the desk upon realizing that your "Secure Download Manager" is a thinly-veiled cover-up for IE6. And the file you downloaded? It's a plain-text URL to a webpage riddled with Active Scripting, which works in IE only. Yeah, apparently Microsoft's idea of "security" are IE6-based scripts. Like if we didn't know how that ended up.

    It will only appear as a thinly veiled coverup for IE6 if that is the version of IE you are running. For instance, I run IE10 and it appears as a thinly veiled coverup for IE10. Would it be better if it just downloaded in the browser? Yes, of course it would. But, that's not what's on offer, so you have to take it on the chin and move on.

    Also also...
    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Is IE good because it's free, and the security concerns are just "a few hoops"?

    If you're still using IE6, then yes, it's going to be terrible and riddled with security holes, just like any old crappy browser. On the other hand, if you're running a modern version of IE (9 or 10), there are less security holes and, particularly the case of IE10, actually comply with current finished standards. Certainly they're not the best browsers (I do like my addons), but they're a hell of a lot better than the IE of old.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    And another thing you're not noticing - TANSTAAFL. Your student license will eventually expire, and the main goal of MSDNAA is to make you realize that you've grown so used to MS products that you'll be willing to spend money to buy them for real. It's not charity, it's an investment - and since they're expecting it to pay back, there's no excuse.

    It's STORY TIME!

    Lenny the Lemur and Morris the Mongoose were best friends. Lenny liked Linux, vim, and bash, while Morris prefered Windows, MIcrosoft Visual C, and right clicking.

    One day, Morris showed Lenny his laptop, which was running a new program he had written, filled with all kinds of buttons and boxes.

    "That's neat!" said Lenny, "but I don't think I could use it."

    Lenny pulled out his laptop.

    "This is what I've been working on," Lenny said, pointing to a black box on his screen where a novel was writing itself.

    "That's amazing!" said Morris, "but I prefer clicking over typing."

    Lenny and Morris proceeded to have explicit gay sex.



  • @gu3st said:

    In most cases, getting software legitimately is 1000 times less convienent than pirating. The ONE service that has gotten this right has been Steam, and it's no wonder why I have over 200 games purchased in Steam. When it's a better user experience to pirate, why purchase something legally?

    <br >
    It kinda goes both ways. I've been beating the average on Humble Bundles pretty regularly - mainly because I don't want to bother looking for these games on shady, virus-ridden Russian websites when I can get them in a nice pack, complete with Steam keys, for just a few bucks.<br >
    <br >
    Actually, getting software legitimately used to be way easier than pirating it just a couple of years ago. With a 256 kbit/s connection and eDonkey being the most common (and most virus-ridden) P2P app, it was easier to just shell out a couple of bucks at store, insert the CD and be good to go. However, as pirating kept becoming easier and easier, playing the games and using applications legitimately became harder and harder with all the DRMs. Meanwhile, completely DRM-free, pay-what-you-want Humble Bundles earn thousands of dollars every sale.



  • @Douglasac said:

    8GB in the laptop, and 3.whateverGB in the gimped uni PC. The last thing I downloaded on the gimped uni machine was Visual Studio 2008, which came in at 3.3GB. Was happily chugging along doing things on the uni PC.


    <br >
    Huh. I've tried both old Win7 install, fresh Win8 install and fresh Win7 install, all on the same PC (don't ask...) and in all cases, the downloader rendered the machine unusable for a good couple of minutes.<br >
    <br >

    It will only appear as a thinly veiled coverup for IE6 if that is the version of IE you are running. For instance, I run IE10 and it appears as a thinly veiled coverup for IE10. Would it be better if it just downloaded in the browser? Yes, of course it would. But, that's not what's on offer, so you have to take it on the chin and move on.



    Yeah, noticed that a couple of posts below. Still, why? Why use a download manager anyway, why dub it "Secure Download Manager" when it doesn't improve security at all, why require the user to download a file that consists only of a link to a server, why doesn't it just work in IE when it works in the downloader?

    Also, I hate that approach. "Just take what they give you and be happy about it". I'm not, and I can imagine a lot of users saying "screw that, I'll just pirate it". Heck, I've actually expected this "downloader" to try to install a toolbar at some point. How is that a good user experience?

    If you're still using IE6, then yes, it's going to be terrible and riddled with security holes, just like any old crappy browser. On the other hand, if you're running a modern version of IE (9 or 10), there are less security holes and, particularly the case of IE10, actually comply with current finished standards. Certainly they're not the best browsers (I do like my addons), but they're a hell of a lot better than the IE of old.

    Or so I've heard. I don't hate IE10, I've heard it's actually a decent browser, I just reserve myself the right to not like it. And I'm certainly not going to appreciate MS forcing me to use it when I have better browsers with better download engines. Just like I don't appreciate that even with N version of Windows installed, I still have to install Windows Media Player to test my performance index.

    Besides, the problem with IE is not the features it doesn't have, it's the features it has - spawning sites that require you to use IE to see anything but a blank screen.

  • :belt_onion:

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    And another thing you're not noticing - TANSTAAFL. Your student license will eventually expire, and the main goal of MSDNAA is to make you realize that you've grown so used to MS products that you'll be willing to spend money to buy them for real. It's not charity, it's an investment - and since they're expecting it to pay back, there's no excuse.
    I've been legally using MS products for ages without ever paying for them (or just small amounts). When your student license expires, you find a job in a Microsoft based development shop and you make sure you get an MSDN subscription.

    You see, it's not YOUR money they are after. MS wants to grow the pool of developers and IT specialist to convince businesses to buy and use their technologies.

    (posted from a totally legal "Windows 8 Pro" that didn't cost me a dime)



  • Going back to the start...

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Step 9: Run the installer for the downloader. Unless you're currently on Linux/BSD/whatever non-Windows, in which case - no soup for you, because apparently Microsoft thinks that even when downloading Windows, you must be on Windows, because there are no other operating systems, right? So here's your MSI installing an EXE refering to IE6. And if you're able to set wine up to digest this mess, why the hell do you need Windows, anyway?

    There's an OS X version. If you launch it in a browser on OS X, you get offered the OS X installer.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Still, why? Why use a download manager anyway, why dub it "Secure Download Manager" when it doesn't improve security at all, why require the user to download a file that consists only of a link to a server, why doesn't it just work in IE when it works in the downloader?

    You'd need to ask Kivuto that. If they did want to use a download manager, there's a number of decent ones they could use - for instance, the one on the Lenovo download site uses the Akamai NetInterface one and works in Chrome, IE and Firefox and has OS X support.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Also, I hate that approach. "Just take what they give you and be happy about it". I'm not, and I can imagine a lot of users saying "screw that, I'll just pirate it".

    Fun fact, you don't have to. If you're downloading an OS, you can just order it, get the key and use whatever media you have (except for XP because it gets bitchy if you use the wrong key with the wrong media (and who uses XP these days)).

    For applications like the Office ones (e.g. Visio), experience and anecdotal evidence shows that it's more painful to pirate it, mainly because it will work fine for a month and then nag you to activate it every launch, whereas with the Dreamspark one, you download the SDM once, you download the file (which is a text file containing a link - open one up with Notepad or whatever and take a look if you haven't), then download the installer.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Heck, I've actually expected this "downloader" to try to install a toolbar at some point. How is that a good user experience?

    I'd call it good because it installed SDM and nothing else personally. I never expected it to install a toolbar.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    I don't hate IE10, I've heard it's actually a decent browser, I just reserve myself the right to not like it.

    Not liking something solely for the sake of not liking it (even though it's competent) is a poor reason to not like something. For instance, I don't like OS X because every time I use it the urge to stab someone in the face rises significantly.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    And I'm certainly not going to appreciate MS forcing me to use it

    What part of "Kivuto are the ones responsible for the SDM not Microsoft" do you not understand? It is not Microsoft forcing you to use it, it is Kivuto, an entirely separate entity to Microsoft. Proof.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    with better download engines

    Define "better download engines". Beyond the fact that Chrome's downloads appear at the bottom of the screen, Firefox's appear as a popup from a button on the toolbar and IE's appear in a separate window, I can't see much separating the same HTTP requests to the same server beyond that. And connection speeds, which are unrelated to browsers.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Just like I don't appreciate that even with N version of Windows installed, I still have to install Windows Media Player to test my performance index.

    Well, that's your fault for using a stupid gimped version of Windows in the first place. Although it's not your fault that the EU felt that an awful media player should be removed from the OS. If only they could do the same for iTunes from OSX...


    In any case, solution 1: install it, test, remove it. Solution 2: use a non-N version of Windows like the majority of the world does.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Besides, the problem with IE is not the features it doesn't have, it's the features it has - spawning sites that require you to use IE to see anything but a blank screen.

    Unless the website in question hasn't been updated since, oh, 2004? You shouldn't run into any of them. In fact, in IE10 more problems arise from developers assuming it's incompetent and forcing it to use shims and whatever that were needed in older versions to work, which make the page look horribly wrong because IE10 actually complies with standards - it passes all the ACID tests and it gets a decent score on the HTML5 test (I think it only loses out on things that aren't finalized because last time Microsoft implemented non-finalized standards they got bitten in the ass because W3C went with Mozilla's or Webkit's implementation).



  • @blakeyrat said:

    So it's ok to pirate because getting the product for free legally is slightly inconvenient.

     

     

     Assuming the ISO you download through this service is the regular Windows and not a tailored one (like the IE testing images), afaik there's nothing illegal about grabbing an unmodified image from The Pirate Bay and using the key they provided. You have a license to use the software, and you're allowed a backup copy.

     



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    if you've been a Linux user for quite a while, you're used to free AND quality content

    You should then also be used to wrestling with counterintuitive and/or nonstandard UIs plus convoluted procedures to get things done.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    getting the product for free legally is slightly inconvenient.
     

    I'm not certain how you classify (allegedly) downloading a downloader that slows your system to a crawl whilst downloading as "slightly inconvenient".

    @blakeyrat said:

    And frankly I don't believe your story because it's utterly, 100% different, than the process of getting products from either MSDN or Microsoft's employee discount program.

    It does strike me as odd that there's a download process that works fine already and yet you're forced to navigate a completely different process for student downloads. I'm no lover of MS, but "ease of use" has always been high in their values for the end-user experience, as well as a monolithic approach across a range of connected services to provide consistency but also promote code reuse and reduce costs.

    Having a completely separate different process that fundamentally does the same as an existing one (and - judging by your shopping basket experience it looks like they reused a existing purchasing system but just zeroed the prices) sounds like the work of the third-party mandated to issue out student-priced products.

    Is DreamSpark actually a Microsoft portal?



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    Step 9: Run the installer for the downloader. Unless you're currently on Linux/BSD/whatever non-Windows, in which case - no soup for you, because apparently Microsoft thinks that even when downloading Windows, you must be on Windows, because there are no other operating systems, right? So here's your MSI installing an EXE refering to IE6.
     

    I get the point about having to use windows to download a windows image - but are you seriously saying that a bunch of non-windows geeks all collectively together do not have any Windows VM amongst them that they could use to begin the first download, and don't have any friends with Windows that could lend an IE-based OS for a day or two?

    (Actually I could believe the last bit, witnessing how OS zealoty can reduce friend count)

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    And if you're able to set wine up to digest this mess, why the hell do you need Windows, anyway?

    .. so that you can run Windows products natively and see them work[1] as intended, rather than flail helplessly in an imperfect emulated environment, producing unexpected results.

    [1] FSVO "work", obviously.



  • @Cassidy said:

    Having a completely separate different process that fundamentally does the same as an existing one (and - judging by your shopping basket experience it looks like they reused a existing purchasing system but just zeroed the prices) sounds like the work of the third-party mandated to issue out student-priced products.

    Is DreamSpark actually a Microsoft portal?

    No, as stated earlier, it is run by Kivuto for Microsoft. Kivuto also run the OnTheHub online thing which offers software for students for free or at significant discount (e.g. my uni offers VMWare stuff free through a similar store, most US students can get stuff cheap through it, etc etc.)



  • I've been through this process before. Though I don't think it even said "Dreamspark" anywhere. I almost restarted my download while it was unpacking because it just seemed to have crashed.

    Related WTF: the "Windows 7 USB/DVD Download Tool". As the name indicates it's a tool to download Windows 7 USB/DVD images, except it's not. It's actually a tool to write Windows (7 and up) .iso images to a bootable DVD or USB disk. It only works for burning 64-bit images from 64-bit systems and 32-bit images from 32-bit systems, but there's no indication of that anywhere, only a cryptic error message ("Could not make the disk bootable") at the end. Googling it just results in Microsoft employees telling you to download a file "from the Microsoft Store where you got your iso" which I had to download from one of these shady "get your missing DLLs here" site. That's assuming the burn process even starts, because if there's anything in the MBR of the disk that this tool doesn't like, it will just flat-out refuse to touch it.

     

    @Douglasac said:

    As for the downloader being crappy, it's not actually Microsoft who are at fault in this case, it's Kivuto (who run the store) who are responsible for it. Interestingly, the VMWare equivalent, also run by them, doesn't use this downloader.
     

    Yes, I suppose Microsoft does not have the resources to set up and maintain a download center themselves, you can't blame them for this...

     



  • @spamcourt said:

    Yes, I suppose Microsoft does not have the resources to set up and maintain a download center themselves, you can't blame them for this...

    Just because someone has the resources to do something doesn't mean that necessarily want to do it, in this instance Microsoft didn't want to maintain the store so they got Kivuto to do it for them. Naturally follows that, even though Microsoft aren't actually responsible for the Kivuto store, we should blame them anyway for something that's not their fault, that's the in thing at the moment anyway with Microsoft, isn't it?

    @Wikipedia said:

    The company [Kivuto] also manages worldwide academic software licensing programs, such as the DreamSpark program (formerly, MSDNAA (the Microsoft Developers Network Academic Alliance)) and the VMAP (VMware Academic Program).



  • @Master Chief said:

    In short, "They're treating us like animals, so let's shit on the floor" is not a good line of thought.
    QFT.

    @gu3st said:

    When it's a better user experience to pirate, why purchase something legally?
    Seriously?

    You don't work in the software industry, then?

    @Ben L. said:

    Lenny and Morris proceeded to have explicit gay sex.

    As opposed to having implicit gay sex.

     

    Also, consider me old-fashioned, but for me a cart is an object you use for carrying stuff, not necessarily stuff you bought.

     



  • @Douglasac said:

    Just because someone has the resources to do something doesn't mean that necessarily want to do it, in this instance Microsoft didn't want to maintain the store so they got Kivuto to do it for them. Naturally follows that, even though Microsoft aren't actually responsible for the Kivuto store, we should blame them anyway for something that's not their fault, that's the in thing at the moment anyway with Microsoft, isn't it?

    @Wikipedia said:

    The company [Kivuto] also manages worldwide academic software licensing programs, such as the DreamSpark program (formerly, MSDNAA (the Microsoft Developers Network Academic Alliance)) and the VMAP (VMware Academic Program).

    We absolutely can blame MS for a defunct contractor. The schools are getting (essentially free) stuff from MS, which they in turn use to further hook unsuspecting pupils on MS tech (remember, not all schools that benefit from MS free student licenses are comp.sci schools, and as such not every student is going to be a tech-savvy-know-it-all). When the vendor of their choice is a piece of shit, then it is all on MS for choosing the wrong tool for the job.

    That being said, I can't recognise the OP's experience with DreamSpark. The one time I used it, it worked just fine, no troubles or anything. And my school wasn't even listed at the time but the download went through anyways.

     



  • @Cenan said:

    That being said, I can't recognise the OP's experience with DreamSpark. The one time I used it, it worked just fine, no troubles or anything. And my school wasn't even listed at the time but the download went through anyways.
    And this is the point. This is the first instance I have ever heard of the SDM going berserk and eating as much memory as it can get its hands on, and I've had several friends go on and download stuff from it, no complaints, not even about this alleged horrible SDM.


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

     Let me just devil's advocate in the OP's defense for a moment. He's not advocating pirating the software.

    The crux of his arguement is that since the software he's getting from IAmTooLazyToScrollUpAndLookAtTheirName Student Corp is [b]free[/b], there is functionally no difference between him getting it from the official site versus getting the same version from TPB, provided:

    1) It is the exact same software

    2) He uses his Student licence to activate it

    It isn't pirating since he isn't obtaining a piece of software for which he doesn't have a license to use.  It's functionally the same as just getting the DVD from your friend, installing from that, entering your key and giving the DVD back.

    That said, I could see why Microsoft would not be happy with doing so:

    1) They possibly lose some usage metrics that they would otherwise gain from the SDM

    2) Having the software on TPB encourages others without a license to obtain the software

    Of course, they might not give a flying fuck because the entire point of this exercise is to get students using MS software, hooked on MS software, and to take the "I use MS software" into their professional lives.

    It's like if-- hmm, car anaglogy for Weng-- lets say you take your car to go to a race. And the race specifies that everyone must first change their car's oil, and they must use the oil of race's sponsor. Let's say ExxonMicrosoft. And in fact, everyone gets a FREE gallon of EM Oil as a thank you for entering the race. Sweet.

    So you go to get your free gallon, and they're "Yeah, in order to get it, we need to change your oil. So here's some custom made left recepticals. We need you to graft them onto the car's frame, coat them with a mixture of flour, water and toe nails (recipe included), bring your car to the arena across town, wait in line with all the other drivers, and help us hold the car up while Bobbo changes the oil. Then you can get rid of the custom lift recepticals."

    So you ask that instead of getting the free oil from them, can you just go to your mechanic friend and have him change your oil instead-- still using EM Oil, of course. Because in the end, you still end up compliant: with your car is full of EM Oil.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    So you're basically saying, that as long as something's free, we should all just shut up and enjoy it? Is MySQL great because it's free, and we're not allowed to complain? Is IE good because it's free, and the security concerns are just "a few hoops"? If somebody gave you a bag of feces with a gold nugget on the bottom for free, would you happily dig through, or would you just throw it in their face?

    Those are software choices. You sound like one of those spoiled brats who whines because they only got $6,000 for clothes shopping, or got a white iPhone instead of the black one. Windows may or may not be the superior option for whatever you're doing, but if you're getting a copy for free for your education, yes, you should shut up and stop bitching and accept it as a grant to further your education without personal expense, which is what it freaking is.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Just the sole fact that you're giving something for free is not going to magically win you a die-hard fanbase. It's especially true for Microsoft, and especially true among CS/IT students who use DreamSpark, because they already have a strong bias for Linux. It's MS that needs to try - if you've been a Linux user for quite a while, you're used to free AND quality content. And if your first Windows Experience is having to run to your school with a HDD because the shitty downloader won't run without employing some pretty serious magic - well, that wouldn't turn me to the dark side.

    • They didn't write the downloader.
    • If you insist on using an OS with a fifth the usage stat of OS X, expect problems. That's why I never commit fully to linux, because it's damn hard to get a lot of things done.
    • If you actually managed to get into a tech college having never touched Windows, that's a miracle. Quit your entitled whining.

    @Maciejasjmj said:
    And another thing you're not noticing - TANSTAAFL. Your student license will eventually expire, and the main goal of MSDNAA is to make you realize that you've grown so used to MS products that you'll be willing to spend money to buy them for real. It's not charity, it's an investment - and since they're expecting it to pay back, there's no excuse.
    Those bastards, trying to sell products.


  • @Cassidy said:

    I'm not certain how you classify (allegedly) downloading a downloader that slows your system to a crawl whilst downloading as "slightly inconvenient".

    I managed to live the first 20 years without a computer being constantly responsive to my needs at every millisecond, I think I could go another 10 minutes without dying from it.

    @Cassidy said:

    Is DreamSpark actually a Microsoft portal?

    My theory is either:

    1) DreamSpark is some subcontractor Microsoft hires, or DreamSpark is hired by the university system and Microsoft has nothing to do with it, or
    2) Microsoft's download process is completely arcane in some specific locale (one where they use words like "uzycia") due to some failure of localization in the normal download process



  • @gu3st said:

    When it's a better user experience to pirate, why purchase something legally?

    Well, I can only speak for myself of course, but I'd say it's because I'm not a entitled fucking asshole douchebag.

    People who produce products you find useful deserve to be rewarded for making them available to you. That applies whether it's a Ford sedan or a copy of Photoshop Elements. I have no fucking clue where people like you came from, but please dive back into your cave because the rest of us are trying to run a civilization here and you're fucking it up.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @Cassidy said:
    This new scanner has a bug where it emails the power company to cancel our utilities, and now I have to run on this treadmill to use my computer because there's no power.

    I managed to live the first 9 months of my life without using electricity. I'm sure you can manage to program a computer that won't turn on.

    Dramatizizedzdztd that for you



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    Heck, I've actually expected this "downloader" to try to install a toolbar at some point. How is that a good user experience?

    Ok you have many valid complaints.

    But how is it DreamSpark/Microsoft's fault that you apparently have some weird psychological issue where you hallucinate that the installer's going to install a toolbar? *Did* it install a toolbar? No? Then shut up on this point, because it really reflects more poorly on you than on DreamSpark/Microsoft. Let's talk about things that actually happened instead of things you think might have maybe been somewhat likely perhaps to happen, maybe.

    "Guys, I wanted to like my new Ford, but about 14 miles down the road I suddenly got the impression psychotic gremlins were following me on a motorcycle, so you see Ford makes bad cars. Because motorcycle-gremlins."



  • @Lorne Kates said:

    It isn't pirating since he isn't obtaining a piece of software for which he doesn't have a license to use. It's functionally the same as just getting the DVD from your friend, installing from that, entering your key and giving the DVD back.

    You're missing the point entirely. The point is that it's Microsoft's software, you download it on Microsoft's terms or not at all.

    If you want a stupid car analogy, say you go to a dealership and come up with a price for a car, but right before you sign you get up and leave. Later, at 2:00 AM, you break into the dealership's office, find your paperwork in a filing cabinet (because they stupidly hadn't shredded it-- damnit it's a shitty analogy bear with me!), break into the safe and take the keys to the car you were buying, and drive off.

    The latter option is what you're doing. Sure it's "functionally" identical to the guy who has the car, ignoring for a moment that he broke the law and is liable for that. But you don't have the right to do that, the car dealership doesn't want people doing that, and it's not how civilization works.



  • Whaaaaaat? A student from Poland that consistently writes comprehensible and grammatically-correct English? Now I can die in peace....


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    If somebody gave you a bag of feces with a gold nugget on the bottom for free, would you happily dig through, or would you just throw it in their face?

    Wait, seriously? Gold is like $1,400 an ounce, and digging through feces is not that bad. I happily dig through feces every goddam spring just to get tomatoes, peppers, cukes, etc...

    ... but you wouldn't dig through feces to get gold!?

    @blackeyrat said:

    Fucking shit the world's full of entitled pricks.



  • Well, the OP's point wasn't that everybody should just pirate shit, it was a tirade against the fact that the "official" way is so convoluted and that maybe, just maybe, that's one of the reasons there's so much pirating going on. I would be perfectly happy to pay for software/music/movies etc(*). as long as a) the price seems fair, and b) the process doesn't make my want to gauge my eyeballs out.

    As a long-term Linux user I have to admit I'm not knowledgable about current best practices in these manners, but it does certainly sound like a very enterprisey way of, ehm, pointing someone to an URI. So, well, that.

    (*) Disclaimer before certain people go all hater on me: no, I don't pirate as it is. My software is free, I don't watch movies except on TV or in the cinema and my music is on CDs or - even better - vinyl. But I'm not blind to the majority's motivation for piracy, and just saying "It Is Forbidden" is not going to solve the underlying problem.



  • @Alex Papadimoulis said:

    ... but you wouldn't dig through feces to get gold!?
     

    Maybe this is giving away too much about my world views, but "no". Cleaning my kitty litter is bad enough, money isn't THAT important. My self-esteem is definitely worth more to me. Now, if it were a supply of gold big enough to ensure I'd never have to work ever again(*) and could solve all the hunger in the world, then I would start considering it. Not some crappy nugget though.

    (*) for clients, that is, I love my job. I really do :)

     



  • @Alex Papadimoulis said:

    Wait, seriously? Gold is like $1,400 an ounce, and digging through feces is not that bad. I happily dig through feces every goddam spring just to get tomatoes, peppers, cukes, etc...

    ... but you wouldn't dig through feces to get gold!?

    Ok hang on, let's sweeten the deal:

    1) Before you start digging you have to cut up your hand, open cuts. No gloves allowed.

    2) A man stands behind you and, for every 30 seconds you fail to find the nugget, he shoves your face into the feces. Again: no protective gear allowed.

    3) The feces came from Michael Moore.

    Now is it worth $1,400?



  • @Alex Papadimoulis said:

    Gold is like $1,400 an ounce
     

    Holy crap, I thought it was like 200-300. Time to grow a manly mustache and head west!




  • @blakeyrat said:

    1) Before you start digging you have to cut up your hand, open cuts. No gloves allowed.

    2) A man stands behind you and, for every 30 seconds you fail to find the nugget, he shoves your face into the feces. Again: no protective gear allowed.

    3) The feces came from Michael Moore.

     

    You are evil. Evil.

     


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @Monomelodies said:

    Maybe this is giving away too much about my world views

    Yes... it says quite a lot...


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @blakeyrat said:

    Ok hang on, let's sweeten the deal

    I suppose that is a much better analogy for how to download software from DreamSpark.

    Also... seriously!!?!?


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

    @blakeyrat said:

    @Lorne Kates said:
    It isn't pirating since he isn't obtaining a piece of software for which he doesn't have a license to use. It's functionally the same as just getting the DVD from your friend, installing from that, entering your key and giving the DVD back.

    You're missing the point entirely. The point is that it's Microsoft's software, you download it on Microsoft's terms or not at all.

     

    But is it?  I don't know. Neither do you. I'm arguing on the side of "I doubt it". The OP read the full terms and conditions (#10: We can break your shit and give you a fiver, bitch), so mabye he can shed some Polish light on this seemingly important question.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Alex Papadimoulis said:

    @Monomelodies said:

    Maybe this is giving away too much about my world views

    Yes... it says quite a lot...

    ObOT: House. The younger years.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    Now, let's compare it to ThePirateBay, shall we?

    The difference here is that TPB, BitTorrent, etc. Is made by computer literate people without a management chain reading MBA courses and magazines and peeing down their ideas down the development drain.



  • @Alex Papadimoulis said:

    I happily dig through feces every goddam spring just to get tomatoes, peppers, cukes, etc...
     

    Snoofle happily digs through feces every goddan day just to get at nuggets of working code.

    Luckily for us, said feces is recycled on a website somewhere - so it's not all wasted.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    And if anyone ever tells me that piracy is bad, I'll have them download the whole MS repository with SDM.

    That's it, I'm coming for you. I'm going to break down the door to your dorm room and I'm going to take everything of value you own--

    Let me start again: I'm going to break down the door to your dorm room and I'm going to wrap myself in the filth-encrusted blanket you use for a bed--

    Ew. No.

    Let me start again: I'm going to break down the door to your dorm room and when you go to stand up I'm going to shove you back down onto your filth-encrusted blanket-bed. Then I'm going to smoke all of your weed (software pirate who thinks FOSS is more usable than Windows? Yeah, I know you have some motherfucker..) Then when you're like "Aw, man, why'd you burn all my schwag??" I'm going to backhand you so hard it knocks the stupid out of you. And by that, I mean that all that will be left is your sallow, greasy pelt.


    Here's an analogy I think might make sense in your country: Let's say your neighbor is finding it tiresome and expensive to engage in foreplay with this sheep. Would you want him crossing the line of rusty, Soviet-era tractor parts that separates your quarter acre of mud from his quarter acre of mud, and having his way with your nubile sheep? Those were your sheep, dammit! You were going to have your way with them!

    Well, when you pirate software what you're doing is having your way with Microsoft's sheep. And the difference between you and Microsoft is that Microsoft could come into your country, kill you, drag your corpse behind its car through your country's most-populous city, then pay off your country's corrupt authorities with a few sheep of their own, and nobody would say a word.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    If somebody gave you a bag of feces with a gold nugget on the bottom for free, would you happily dig through, or would you just throw it in their face?

    Dude, somebody could give you a bag of feces with a Twinkie at the bottom, and I get the feeling you'd gleefully dig for it.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    ...if you've been a Linux user for quite a while, you're used to free AND quality content.

    You are more full of feces than that Twinkie you are eating.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    And if your first Windows Experience is having to run to your school with a HDD because the shitty downloader won't run without employing some pretty serious magic - well, that wouldn't turn me to the dark side.

    How is it even possible to not have your first Windows Experience until you are in college? Goddamn poor people..

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    And another thing you're not noticing - TANSTAAFL. Your student license will eventually expire, and the main goal of MSDNAA is to make you realize that you've grown so used to MS products that you'll be willing to spend money to buy them for real. It's not charity, it's an investment - and since they're expecting it to pay back, there's no excuse.

    While you're true about it being an investment by Microsoft, you've skipped a much more intriguing point: what's the cost of the FOSS free lunch? I have my suspicions that the Dark Elders of FOSS (Torvalds, Stallman, etc.) actually own a large number of sanitariums, and their goal is to make you a permanent resident.



  • @Monomelodies said:

    ...my music is on CDs or - even better - vinyl.

    My music is all on Edison Wax Cylinders, so suck it you poseur.



  • @Monomelodies said:

    Cleaning my kitty litter is bad enough, money isn't THAT important.

    So you're willing to dig through cat shit for free, but if somebody asks you to dig through shit for an actual benefit, that's bad? Meanwhile, if you don't dig through that bag of shit, that dude gets to keep his gold. If you get the gold, then you can make other people dig through shit for it.

    @Monomelodies said:

    My self-esteem is definitely worth more to me.

    I think you have a delusional idea of your own worth. People dig through shit all the time, just to survive. As Alex pointed out, some of us dig through shit as a hobby. Is your self-worth really that strongly tied to the idea of not having to ever get your hands dirty? If so, then isn't it true that you look down on people who do get their hands dirty for a living? You see yourself as better than a garbageman or a plumber, right?

    @Monomelodies said:

    Now, if it were a supply of gold big enough to ensure I'd never have to work ever again(*) and could solve all the hunger in the world, then I would start considering it. Not some crappy nugget though.

    So you've been given the opportunity to end world hunger* simply by getting shit on your hands for a few seconds, and your response is "I'll consider it"?? What kind of entitled jackass are you??


    *I have no idea how you think some quantity of money is going to end world hunger, since as it is most of the food aid given to poor countries simply undermines their local farmers and aids the criminal governments which keep them starving, making them even less able to feed themselves.



  • @dhromed said:

    Holy crap, I thought it was like 200-300. Time to grow a manly mustache and head west!

    The last time it was $300 was in 2002-2003. It was nearly $1800 just a few months ago. Which gives you a pretty decent idea of how worthless the USD has become.


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