The "I hate Java club"?

Savior

Since we have the I hate Oracle club, I was thinking, doesn't Java should have this "privilege" too?

sas

Count me in! [N]

C++ forever!

phelyan

Yup, and a club for VB, Python, C, C++, C#, Perl, shell scripts, JavaScript, LISP, Fortran, Cobol, ADA, Assembler, TCL/TK, Pascal, ASP, PHP, CSS, SDI and THC.

I got tired of language wars about 2 years ago. The same scenarios play out again and again, and it's usually because one of:

Someone has been coding Language A for years and has only recently tried Language B and can't find their way around it.
Languages are written for a purpose and with an idea in mind. Programmer A does not understand the purpose or the idea behing the language.
Comparisons are drawn between tiny aspects ("But A handles 32-bit-buffer underrun flushes in Glob objects derived from moose-aspect flubbers much better than B, so B sucks").
Someone has had a bad experience with Language B and has abandoned it.
Someone is simply a religious fanatic that insists everything should be done in A because they do and so should everybody else.

Language bashing is childish and useless.

felix

@Savior said:

Since we have the I hate Oracle club, I was
thinking, doesn't Java should have this "privilege" too?

Shouldn't that be the "I-hate-being-forced-to-use-tools-I-don't-like club?" Let's go right into the core of the problem.

dhromed

How about the "I hate Java desktop applications-club"?

I mean, nobody seems to like Oracle's installer, and JEdit is the
slowest texteditor around. I suppose the good thing is that it performs
equally bad on all platforms.

But I admit that that's all I got, and of course there's the wisdom of
there being bad programmers in all languages, and so it's not
necessarily the language's fault.

Savior

I'm not willing to start a flame war, with that in mind, let's start the quotes!

Yup, and a club for VB, Python, C, C++, C#, Perl, shell scripts, JavaScript, LISP, Fortran, Cobol, ADA, Assembler, TCL/TK, Pascal, ASP, PHP, CSS, SDI and THC.

Yes, feel free to start the ones you want.

I got tired of language wars about 2 years ago. The same scenarios play out again and again, and it's usually because one of:

Someone has been coding Language A for years and has only recently tried Language B and can't find their way around it.
Languages are written for a purpose and with an idea in mind. Programmer A does not understand the purpose or the idea behing the language.
Comparisons are drawn between tiny aspects ("But A handles 32-bit-buffer underrun flushes in Glob objects derived from moose-aspect flubbers much better than B, so B sucks").
Someone has had a bad experience with Language B and has abandoned it.
Someone is simply a religious fanatic that insists everything should be done in A because they do and so should everybody else.

Language bashing is childish and useless.

Facts:
1) I'm talking about Java from a user perspective (but a user with programming knowledge)
2) I've never coded crap in java. I've never coded even a line in java. I don't know java. Java gave me terrible experiences while user, why would I code in a language that gave me a bad impression as a user?

Shouldn't that be the "I-hate-being-forced-to-use-tools-I-don't-like club?" Let's go right into the core of the problem.

As I said, I've never coded java. Too crappy to me. I learned from my experiences. I researched about java. I hate java.

Once again, from my perspective, here's the core problems:

Too damn slow (For reference, first read this link: http://kano.net/javabench/ and after you B.S detector fire, scroll down, and find the link: http://www.freewebs.com/godaves/javabench_revisited/ , now, read it again)
Over hyped.
Portability? Who cares? C is portable. FreePascal is portable. Nuff said.
A "hello word" application that uses 9 fricking MB of RAM??
Oh, wait, but you can deploy once, run EVERYWHERE! See? Oh, no, wait, this java application requires the JRE 1.4.1, and will not run you yours, since it's 1.4.0. All you have to do is download a new 60 MB runtime.
OOP. Not that OOP is bad, but having a language that forces you to wrap every single line into a class, gives so much freedom.
With an array of 10000 integers, how much memory would this require in java, and in C?
Flash can do most of what java does, and is faster, and much more bug-free.

And if you allow me to quote A. Westhauser:

Well I've been programming Java for 5 years now, and I can tell you from experience Java SUCKS.

Here's why:
1. The JVM sucks - it handles garbage collection poorly and leaks memory. Nothing like watching the stupid thing slowly draw down all your memory and stay there after most of your users have left the Jakarta-Tomcat-servlet thingamagig, and never give it back. Makes you wanna scream!!!

2. OO taken to the utmost stupidity. I mean such convoluted garbage as: String s = new String("java sucks"); And that's the beginning! It gets worse! How about: class Basketball extends Ball implements Inflatable {}; What's wrong with the creators of Java? Seems like they were so in love with their own OO creation they took it to masturbatory lengths every time they create a new library!

3. Why are all the libraries/apps advertised as being "Enterprise"?? Every time a new one comes out, its gotta be "Enterprise". Or every time a bunch of blokes come out with a new open source such-and-such, they say its "Enterprise". IE: http://sourceforge.net/proje cts/ejbutils/ or http://arch4j.sourceforge.ne t/ to name just a few. So what does "Enterprise" actually mean? Technically it means serving at least a small business (ie: 10 or so users) and has a database. Whoopee. But really all it means is that these little weenie java programmers really want you to believe that their programs are very very important, and oh-so-complex.

4. Struts, Hibernate, JSP, JSF, EJB, etc. Those are some of the components used to build "Enterprise" web applications. You got it folks - to write an application whose end result is a bunch of HTML pages which are really nothing but a bunch of strings to be interpreted by a web browser. All that complexity just to render web pages... why?? The java weenies say because you need to separate logic from presentation, and you gotta scale. I'm sorry, but there are much simpler and proven ways to separate logic from presentation and java DOES NOT SCALE. I've experienced it - company spends $10K for yet another Sun server (their 3rd) because their web app gets 1000 concurrent users. What does it take to have a web app to serve 1000 concurrent users? Very little and definitely not java. Not to mention the hundreds of wasted man-hours learning how to use these ridiculously complex framework/libraries. Not to mention how much money companies lose in paying people competent enough to use these libraries, administer and manage them.

5. ORM or "Object Relational Mapping". Yep, big words as usual from the java camp. It means a method to map java's object-centric approach over top of relational data comprised of rows and columns (ie: tabular data). In practice right now it means "Hibernate" - so that java weenies can query or update a database without having to use SQL and instead use java. What it means in practice is for Hibernate to generate inefficient querying code to send to the database server and bog it right down. Sorry, but there's no excuse for a simple JOIN to turn into a mess of 4 or 5 queries. But the java weenies have acted like it was the best thing since sliced bread, as they do all new things java. This is yet another example of the masturbatory java object fantasy.

6. Sun's NIO (network IO) library. Another example of java stupidity... why does a network library in a high level language make programming sockets MORE COMPLEX than if I were to do it in C++, a system language???

7. Swing. OK I've used many GUI libraries, such as WxWidgets, Qt, WinForms, TK. But Swing is the WORST performer, and the most labour intensive to program. Not only that, it actually manages to look worse than TK. Is it cross platform? Theoretically, but not in practise. Is WxWidgets, Qt, and TK cross platform? Yes in practise.

8. Applets. Running the JVM from within the browser sounded like such a great idea didn't it... like most java ideas they sound great at first. Want to kill all your open browsers and everything you were looking at? Just run a java applet!

9. Write once run anywhere. Bullshit. It was supposed to mean ZERO-configuration on any platform. But almost every time a java application gets deployed, you had to configure the hell out of the machine to make it run with any kind of acceptable performance. Now recently I had to run a dotNet application on Linux (Mono). I was stupified it worked so well, but then again I had spent so long in the java camp that I didn't think anything like that could ever be achieved.

But I know some people will say that java is not slow, who else could I quote, besides John Carmack?

Write-once-run-anywhere. Ha. Hahahahaha. We are only testing on four platforms right now, and not a single pair has the exact same quirks. All the commercial games are tweaked and compiled individually for each (often 100+) platform. Portability is not a justification for the awful performance.

Reference: http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/johnc/Recent%20Updates
[Look for Cell phone adventures]

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

Feel free to disagree.

phelyan

@Savior said:

Feel free to disagree.

See my above comment about childishness of language wars. Even your
good Mr Westhauser has to resort to personal insults (and incidentally
proves a few of my points above).

I hate chocolate with nuts in it. Can't stand it. But I have yet to
write a long article ranting about the evils of chocolate with nuts in
it, because I know there's quite a few people out there who like it.

Well, I think you proved my original point well enough.

felix

@Savior said:

I'm not willing to start a flame war, with that in mind, let's start the quotes!

Then why are you trying to?

@Savior said:

Feel free to disagree.

Sure I disagree. Not completely, but I disagree. And I *could* give you my own examples. From personal experience, not quoting from experts (BTW, I did read that article by Mr. Carmack). And I wouldn't mind, because I like philosophycal discussions. But you're taking it waaay too personally (I should know, I tend to do that too).

Just a couple of questions (you may answer by e-mail if you like):

1. Do you actually use several platforms/OSes? Did you actually try a Java appplication on more than one?
2. Did you try a recent JRE (like 1.4.2 or 1.5)? On what hardware configurations?
3. (Ok, three questions) Are you aware that you can program for the Java platform in other, saner languages?

Thanks. And my apologies to the other participants.

Savior

@phelyan said:

@Savior said:
Feel free to disagree.

See my above comment about childishness of language wars. Even your good Mr Westhauser has to resort to personal insults (and incidentally proves a few of my points above).

I hate chocolate with nuts in it. Can't stand it. But I have yet to write a long article ranting about the evils of chocolate with nuts in it, because I know there's quite a few people out there who like it.

Well, I think you proved my original point well enough.

Please, don't take it personally, but:
1) "War" can only exist between two entites. Could you point out what's the other language? I'm not comparing java with nothing, I'm saying I hate it. It sucks. Period.
2) "Childish" is when, after I've pointed what sucks on java, you just replied saying that it was childish, instead of proving me wrong, or at least, make me know about what I don't know about java.

So, after your last post, you prove my original point: Java sucks.
Because you couldn't prove me wrong.
You just replied that it was childish, and surely it's what a grown adult would do. Just point out juvenile actions, not presenting improvements/corrections.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

Savior

Then why are you trying to?

Read my initial post, it said:

Since we have the I hate Oracle club, I was thinking, doesn't Java should have this "privilege" too?

Do you think that I'm trying?

Just a couple of questions (you may answer by e-mail if you like):

1. Do you actually use several platforms/OSes? Did you actually try a Java appplication on more than one?

Only Windows family. I know, bash me.

2. Did you try a recent JRE (like 1.4.2 or 1.5)? On what hardware configurations?

Last time, I was after an application in java, (win XP), and I wasn't really willing to look at it bad. I thought: "Well, it must have been improved, can't be all that bad if they are using it", until I realised that all that I needed to run the application, was the JRE 1.4.1, and the smallest package consisted of only 60MB. Only. 1 GHz pc.
I've installed, didn't like the performance, and uninstalled the JRE. I'm not willing to look at it again for a long time.

3. (Ok, three questions) Are you aware that you can program for the Java platform in other, saner languages?

Like, you can code a dll in another language and use JNI to call it? If it's this, yes, I know.
But then, you just blow the portability, and you have to use another language to do the core work, mostly because of speed, in this case (or why would you code a dll in another language, if you are using java?)
If it's not this the answer, tell me.

phelyan

You just don't get it, do you? Saying that java sucks has as much
impact as saying you don't like rice. Nobody forces you to eat it, so
harping on about why you don't like rice is completely pointless. Yet
you insist that I defend something which I have said many times I don't
see the need to defend. And claim triumphant victory when I say that
I'm tired of 'X sucks', 'Y is better than Z' and 'Q rules'.

It's almost midnight and I should be in bed, yet I will amuse myself,
and you, by replying to a few points from Mr. Westhausers's
insult-riddled list:

This is a problem of the Virtual Machine. It has nothing to do with the language.
String s = "java sucks"; Nobody forces you to use the constructor.
Nobody forces you to use abstract classes, interfaces or inheritance.
The language simple gives you the possibility of using them should you
so want to.
"Enterprise", ".NET", "MooseBrains"... quibbling about words, not a criticism of the language.
PHP, ASP, CGI scripts written in anything from assembler to shell
scripts. What gives? Again, nobody forces you to use the variety of
java based solutions for web applications. The fact that there are so
many merely highlights that it's a popular language at the moment for
which many solutions are being developed right now.
Once more, nobody says you have to do it. The JDBC drivers allow you
to execute any query you could want. In fact some parts of our product
use lovingly handcrafted queries to return data.

And so on and so forth. Some true, some not. Personally I haven't had
to use nio or swing yet, so I won't comment, but it's been years since
an applet brought my machine to a halt, and our web application happily
runs on windows, linux, using sql server, mysql and oracle with the
same amount of effort everywhere.

There, that's a reply. No doubt you will be writing another long reply
to this and before we know it we're deep in a discussion that should
not take place. But, as I said, it's almost midnight here and tiredness
sometimes makes me do things I shouldn't be doing.

You sound like a young man full of anger for something that should not
cause such emotions. Do you get angry at a hammer because it is too
heavy for what you want it to do? Or because you cannot screw in screws
with it?

phelyan

Ah, too tired. Of course when I said 'the JDBC drivers' I meant the
java.sql package. Before somebody skins me alive on a technicality.

Savior

@phelyan said:

No doubt you will be writing another long reply to this and before we know it we're deep in a discussion that should not take place. But, as I said, it's almost midnight here and tiredness sometimes makes me do things I shouldn't be doing.

Heh, looking from the posts, I remember well that you was the one that started it all, saying that it was childish and pointless, even though you keep replying.
Not anymore.
Nor with you.

felix

@Savior said:

1. Do you actually use several platforms/OSes? Did you actually try a Java appplication on more than one?

Only Windows family. I know, bash me.

In this case trust me, Java programs *are* portable between the available platforms. Provided they are well written, of course.

@Savior said:

Last time, I was after an application in java, (win XP), and I wasn't really willing to look at it bad. I thought: "Well, it must have been improved, can't be all that bad if they are using it", until I realised that all that I needed to run the application, was the JRE 1.4.1, and the smallest package consisted of only 60MB. Only. 1 GHz pc.

I see. Perhaps you have different space/time requirements than I do. I thought 60Mb wasn't much on a 8Gb HDD. True, the JVM does start up slowly on my 600MHz Athlon.

@Savior said:

Like, you can code a dll in another language and use JNI to call it? If it's this, yes, I know.

Actually, I meant other languages that compile to Java bytecodes. Or the various interpreters written in Java (which may or may not be suitable for you). Of course it would be absurd to write non-portable code in Java. Especially when *easy* portability is what you need.

Oh well. Perhaps Java just isn't the thing for you.

Cheers,

SurfaceTension

I'd like to say that I pretty much hate Java as well, however, I give it credit where credit is due.

@Savior

You are really attacking this the wrong way. If you want to vent, fine, but do some research man!

Poorly written applications aren't the fault of the language if the
programmers do a bad job. Take a look at Teamspeak. It's written in
Java and works pretty well. You don't even need the JVM installed! Yo
Ho Ho Pirates is a Java game that performs really well for using 2D
graphics in Java.

A. Westhauser

This guy needs to stop whining. If
he's going to bash Java, he needs to come up with some valid
complaints, instead of resorting to name calling and the like. He
points his finger at things that both Java and .Net have in common, but
then falls back to .Net as an example!

John Carmack doesn't hate Java. He had a bad experience with Java on
cell phones, which is a very hardware dependent group of platforms
(standards? ha!). Cell phone development is still very immature, you
can't reasonably blame Java or Brew for their shortcommings this early
on.

Right now I write my code on a PC, and then I FTP the stuff over to a
Sun machine. Runs 100% ok, no hitches at all. I just make sure my JVM's
match and I'm good to go. Don't like different VM versions running
around? Wait til 2.0 of .Net comes out, you'll have the same thing.

As for Swing, non-religious Java programmers will admit that it's
clunky and slow. Most of the time this can be sped up by taking code
out of your events though. I think Java is getting away from the
desktop stuff, and moving to high end web development.

I use Java at work everyday. I hate it, but I realize it has strengths.
I really like the .Net stuff, but I'll admit that the differences are
very small.

Here's some things I don't like:

Multiple Inheritence - From a C++ background, this is very useful to
me. Java I can compose some pretty powerful classes, but only implement
the code for specific interfaces once. Java (and C# as well) allows
inheriting one class, and indefinite amount of interfaces (which you
must implement). I feel that this makes you duplicate code if you want
an interface to have a common/default implementation.

JavaBeans - This isn't so much Java's fault as a language, but a part
of the Sun. This is a good example of an anti-pattern IMO. Throw your
data in, pass the bean, pull it out. Simple, right? Wait, you forgot to
give it a variable or two? Hurray for catching errors in runtime! At
work, I see Javabeans as an assistant to ORM (which could be done
better with a hashtable) and to pass data from one section to the
others (Look Ma! No parameters!). Java doesn't force you to use beans,
so the point is moot.

It's slow - I hear this complaint a lot. I do gave development, so for
me, it IS slow, but then again it's the wrong tool for the job in that
case. For desktop/web development, it's good enough. It's a balance
between programming time and processor time. .Net will have the same
problems here.

OOP - It's completely shoved down your throat (same with .Net). Hello
World shouldn't have a class in it. At work I have some older code, and
it's all OOP, but it's still writen procedurally. Classes just serve as
namespaces. Is OOP bad? Should we do everything procedurally? Of course
not. However, if I want to make a simple program that parses some text
or something, I don't need a huge class hierarchy. I just need a
function or tow. I realize it's a hard and fast rule to make things
more simple, but I vent either way.

The libraries treat me like an idiot - Maybe this is better for when
you have a big team of developers and they can't stumble over each
other, and tight order must be maintained. However, it would be nice to
have an easier way to open files for text reading, for example. If Java
could take some tools that are pretty much required in any medium size
project and stuff them in the core library, that would be great. As it
stands right now, I have to include a library just to parse XML. If I'm
going to use a high level language, it means I don't have time to dick
around. I just want to glue stuff together and call it a program.

With all of this in mind, do I think people should never use Java? Of
course not. It's served many people well over the years. It's come a
long way too. I really like how they recently came out with generics.

As a finishing note, if someone would like to show me a good way to use
JavaBeans, I'm all ears. Until then, it's filed in my anti-patterns
section (: I'm open to discussion on any of my points. I think you'll
agree that there are problems with any language. They are tools. Like
it was said above, you don't use a hammer to put screws in something.

Ulvhamne

Uhm. I actually find java useful once in a while.

Like making games for my mobile phone. ;P

But, I think they ought to put the library on a diet. Its huge.

Drak

One of my websites runs on jakarta/tomcat. And does it ever eat memory!

29 mb.. ooh i'm sure my 384mb P-II 333 can't handle that... I think Java can be useful for stuff like running a website, and I regulary use a Java program to update my Dungeons and Dragons character.

Java is not my first choice for writing a program, but it has multiple uses, so I do not think it sucks.

Drak

felix

@Ulvhamne said:

Uhm. I actually find java useful once in a while.

Like making games for my mobile phone. ;P

But, I think they ought to put the library on a diet. Its huge.

Try Superwaba. The library is much more reasonable. Downside: it's not
ported to mobile phones, only PDAs. Upside: programs should run
seamlessly on all supported platforms, including the PC. Disclaimer: I
haven't tried it yet.

JThelen

@Savior said:

Since we have the I hate Oracle club, I was
thinking, doesn't Java should have this "privilege" too?

I read through all the rest of this. I figure I'll save some time and just quote this with my reply.

GTFO Troll. Seriously; I can understand an 'I hate Oracle
Club'. There's a lot in Oracle DB that doesn't need to be there,
and the HR suite of applications holds a special place with me.. IE a
room full of unfed angry bears for the development team.

As to Java, you've done nothing but perpetuate the same old bullshit
mythologies that have been around for years, and are still nothing but
bullshit and spew.

Additionally, since you seem to be too bothered to back up your
opinions with anything but bullshit conjecture, don't expect it from
anyone else.

Cheers.

Ulvhamne

@felix said:

@Ulvhamne said:
Uhm. I actually find java useful once in a while.

Like making games for my mobile phone. ;P

But, I think they ought to put the library on a diet. Its huge.

Try Superwaba. The library is much more reasonable. Downside: it's not
ported to mobile phones, only PDAs. Upside: programs should run
seamlessly on all supported platforms, including the PC. Disclaimer: I
haven't tried it yet.

Ah, well, therein lies the problem. I dont have any pdas, but I do have
some mobile phones, so making games for myself for PDAs.. Well, maybe
some day.

Cyresse

@JThelen said:

@Savior said:
Since we have the I hate Oracle club, I was thinking, doesn't Java should have this "privilege" too?

I read through all the rest of this. I figure I'll save some time and just quote this with my reply.

GTFO Troll. Seriously; I can understand an 'I hate Oracle Club'. There's a lot in Oracle DB that doesn't need to be there, and the HR suite of applications holds a special place with me.. IE a room full of unfed angry bears for the development team.

As to Java, you've done nothing but perpetuate the same old bullshit mythologies that have been around for years, and are still nothing but bullshit and spew.

Additionally, since you seem to be too bothered to back up your opinions with anything but bullshit conjecture, don't expect it from anyone else.

Cheers.

Erm, that's like the troll calling the other... troll all warty and sub-bridge dwelling.... erm...

Look, if you love Java, just say so, it's OK, we won't make fun of you. But does it really require such a personally directed diatribe?

I personally can't stand Java.

I don't like the following

Static typing...

...On methods

Throws x exception handling

Interfaces

Lack of multiple inheritance

Huge, clunky on load JVM

Incompatible JVM's

15 classes, 15 files

A class involved in "Hello World"

BufferedStreamReader reader = new BufferedStreamReader(new InputStreamReader(con.getInputStream())); to read from console

Gets & Sets

But, that's because I learnt to programme with Python, and do 90% of my programming in Python. Relative to Python, Java stinks. The standard library is bloated, it enforces it's own peculiar flavour of OOP, Swing is worse than Tkinter, it's just yuck.

But, I'm not going to insult you because you like it.
If I had to work with Java, I'm sure I'd develop a pathological hatred of it, eventually. But, if I'd worked solely in C++ prior, and then found Java, it would've been so... relieving, a delightful language. So I can understand how some people love it.

That said, I'll stay away from it as much as possible, but I'm still not going to abuse you for liking it. In other words, chill.

brazzy

@Cyresse said:

I personally can't stand Java.

I don't like the following



Static typing...

...On methods

Throws x exception handling

Interfaces

Lack of multiple inheritance

Huge, clunky on load JVM

Incompatible JVM's

15 classes, 15 files

A class involved in "Hello World"

BufferedStreamReader reader = new BufferedStreamReader(new InputStreamReader(con.getInputStream())); to read from console

Gets & Sets
But, that's because I learnt to programme with Python, and do 90% of my programming in Python. Relative to Python, Java stinks.

Based on such wonderful arguments, it's just as easy to "prove" that relative to Java, Python stinks (What kind of sick mind does it take to come up with syntactically relevant whitespace??). About a third of your points above is valid, the rest is a mix of laughable details, and good things of Java. Basically, you're just saying "I hate Java because it's not Python".

Cyresse

@brazzy said:

Based on such wonderful arguments, it's just as easy to "prove" that relative to Java, Python stinks (What kind of sick mind does it take to come up with syntactically relevant whitespace??).

Err... how hard is it to press tab? Anyway. You missed my entire point.
I'm not saying that Java is bad, I'm just saying why [i]I[/i] dislike it.

I don't think I mentioned casting out of single type arrays, either, but nevermind.

But, listen carefully, here's the real important bit that I was trying to emphasise
"I don't like Java, but I'm not abusing you because you do."

Yeah, some people don't like using indentation to denote nesting level, I think it's great, obviously. That's cool, if you don't like Python, don't use it.

I think the difference therein is that Python is not a commonly used language for commercial applications, whereas Java is. So, the chances of a devoted Java fan being forced to use Python are very, very, slim, whereas the chances of someone who does not like Java, for whatever reason, of having to make do with it to continue working as a programmer is very, very, high.

I've seen more rants about Java than Python, simply because no-one has to use Python. (fanatic rant follows) and those who do grow to love it. :p

Same principle applies to Ruby, REBOL, etc.

Savior

Man, forget these people. They can't keep a conversation without having to bitch and rant about this or that. And now, you should have also learned that they can't understand other's points...

Just look at the initial post:

"Since we have the I hate Oracle club, I was thinking, doesn't Java should have this "privilege" too? "

And now, read the replies...

brazzy

@Savior said:

Man, forget these people. They can't keep a conversation without having
to bitch and rant about this or that. And now, you should have also
learned that they can't understand other's points...

pot... kettle... black...

@Savior said:

Just look at the initial post:

"Since we have the I hate Oracle club, I was thinking, doesn't Java should have this "privilege" too? "

And now, read the replies...

Yes, please do so. You will notice that all replies were calm and civil
objections to having another pointless language flamewar.

Then, in your second post, you said "I'm not willing to start a flame
war", but did exactly that with a plethora of stupid and wrong strawman
arguments. For example:

@Savior said:

Oh, wait, but you can deploy once, run EVERYWHERE! See? Oh, no, wait,
this java application requires the JRE 1.4.1, and will not run you
yours, since it's 1.4.0. All you have to do is download a new 60 MB
runtime.

First, the 1.5 runtime (latest and biggest) is 15 MB. Second, if an app
runs on 1.4.1 but not 1.4.0, it either depends critically on a bugfix
in 1.4.1, which is commonplace in current applications in ANY language.
Or the programmers were incompetent. Most likely, it would run just
fine in any 1.4 or 1.5 VM and the maker was just too lazy to test on
more than one VM or let users try a different VM, which might generate
more bug reports.

In the past 3 years, I've worked on two very big Java apps, and encountered a whopping total of THREE VM-version-related bugs.

As for Mr. Westhauser, he's so full of shit it's almost funny:

OO taken to the utmost stupidity. I mean such convoluted garbage as: String s = new String("java sucks"); And that's the beginning!

That's convoluted garbage indeed, since it's unnecessary and most Java books will tell you NOT to do that since String s = "java rules"; works without creating an extra String object.

Considering that you started this thread and then turned it into a flamewar when nobody else did, it looks to me like you're simply a troll.

Savior

Yes, I'm a troll. Now that you realise this, why don't people let this thread die?

naturally_iced

"Flash can do most of what java does, and is faster, and much more bug-free."

Dude, have you ever worked on any serious project in your life? You're ranting and raving

about stuff you have no clue about. Anyone that drops a reference to FreePascal in an argument

about programming languages is out of their god damn mind. How much have you ever been paid to write

an app in pascal? Maybe Delphi, but even that's garbage and not portable.

Savior

@naturally_iced said:

"Flash can do most of what java does, and is faster, and much more bug-free."

Dude, have you ever worked on any serious project in your life? You're ranting and raving
about stuff you have no clue about. Anyone that drops a reference to FreePascal in an argument
about programming languages is out of their god damn mind. How much have you ever been paid to write
an app in pascal? Maybe Delphi, but even that's garbage and *not* portable.

I feel enchanted that you've gone trough the trouble of registering just to be able to post on this thread!

Haha! Delphi = garbage! FreePascal = out of my god damn mind!
Aren't you saying this because you're angry about java?
Heh [H]

sockpuppet7

@blakeyrat said in Windows and the unwanted apps [Angry rant time]:

@Atazhaia said in Windows and the unwanted apps [Angry rant time]:

GODDAMMIT DISNEY MAGIC KINGDOMS! HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO KILL YOU BEFORE YOU STAY DEAD?

It's magic.

Necromancy, specifically.

Gribnit

@phelyan This in NO WAY EXCLUDES the bashing of PHP.

PleegWat

The I hate java club should be a subcategory of the I hate oracle club.

Gribnit

@PleegWat you're technically correct but now I must kill you.

pie_flavor

Java does suck, but it's still better than most of the competition.,

Tsaukpaetra

@brazzy said in The "I hate Java club"?:

First, the 1.5 runtime (latest and biggest) is 15 MB.

Hah. It's increased tenfold since then 😂

swayde

@pie_flavor said in The "I hate Java club"?:

Java does suck, but it's still better than most of the competition.,

Most, but it's definitely worse than c#

Lukfi

Do people still hate Java after 13 years? I don't understand why. Yes, as a language it is kind of verbose, but nowadays you also have languages like Groovy or Kotlin which run on the JVM and give you access to the vast amount of Java libraries.

Unperverted Vixen

@Lukfi said in The "I hate Java club"?:

Do people still hate Java after 13 years? I don't understand why.

I don't hate Java the language, but I've yet to find a Java IDE that holds a candle to Visual Studio for performance and user-friendliness.

@Lukfi said in The "I hate Java club"?:

Yes, as a language it is kind of verbose, but nowadays you also have languages like Groovy or Kotlin which run on the JVM and give you access to the vast amount of Java libraries.

That's not a reason to like Java, it's a reason to like the JVM. (Just because .NET lets me access assemblies written in VB.NET doesn't make VB.NET my idea of a fun time!)

dkf

@Unperverted-Vixen said in The "I hate Java club"?:

I don't hate Java the language, but I've yet to find a Java IDE that holds a candle to Visual Studio for performance and user-friendliness.

Until it comes to uninstalling or upgrading, if what I've read here is accurate.

(FWIW, Java 8 feels vastly different to older versions; the streams and inline functions make quite a difference.)

pie_flavor

@Lukfi said in The "I hate Java club"?:

Do people still hate Java after 13 years? I don't understand why. Yes, as a language it is kind of verbose, but nowadays you also have languages like Groovy or Kotlin which run on the JVM and give you access to the vast amount of Java libraries.

Yes, so they eliminate about half of the stupidity.
The other half remains

pie_flavor

@Unperverted-Vixen said in The "I hate Java club"?:

I don't hate Java the language, but I've yet to find a Java IDE that holds a candle to Visual Studio for performance and user-friendliness.

IntelliJ IDEA.

Lukfi

@Unperverted-Vixen said in The "I hate Java club"?:

I don't hate Java the language, but I've yet to find a Java IDE that holds a candle to Visual Studio for performance and user-friendliness.

What's wrong with NetBeans? I haven't done a whole lot of development in it, but I quite like it (and I do have some experience with Visual Studio, which is of course pretty good).

pie_flavor

@Lukfi said in The "I hate Java club"?:

@Unperverted-Vixen said in The "I hate Java club"?:

I don't hate Java the language, but I've yet to find a Java IDE that holds a candle to Visual Studio for performance and user-friendliness.

What's wrong with NetBeans? I haven't done a whole lot of development in it, but I quite like it (and I do have some experience with Visual Studio, which is of course pretty good).

There is only one good thing that can be said about Eclipse, and it's "at least it's not NetBeans".

dkf

@pie_flavor said in The "I hate Java club"?:

"at least it's not NetBeans"

I have a colleague at work who uses and likes NetBeans. It's definitely better than it used to be, and has the advantage of picking up project configuration out of standardised definition files (Maven POMs in our case) entirely automatically, even including some of the fairly complex stuff we've got set up. I prefer Eclipse myself, but then I do inter-language work.

Unperverted Vixen

@dkf said in The "I hate Java club"?:

Until it comes to uninstalling or upgrading, if what I've read here is accurate.

As a C# web dev, my upgrading experience with C# through the last five versions (starting at 2008, going to 2017 with every stop in-between) has been painless over the years. Desktop installer apps have been the only real pain point with upgrades I'm aware of for C#/VB.NET.

C++ is another story due to compiler changes between versions, but I don't think that's unique to VS.

@pie_flavor said in The "I hate Java club"?:

IntelliJ IDEA.

I thought I tried it, but I can't remember why I wrote it off. I may have to give it another go.

@Lukfi said in The "I hate Java club"?:

What's wrong with NetBeans?

The IntelliSense-equivalent for any third party packages was abysmal. It's what I ended up using, I think, but it certainly wasn't a great experience.

Gąska

@Unperverted-Vixen said in The "I hate Java club"?:

The IntelliSense-equivalent

It's called code completion. Everyone except Microsoft calls it code completion.

Lukfi

@Unperverted-Vixen said in The "I hate Java club"?:

The IntelliSense-equivalent for any third party packages was abysmal. It's what I ended up using, I think, but it certainly wasn't a great experience.

Just out of curiosity, when was this? I last used NetBeans about one and a half years ago, playing around with some 3rd party jars, and don't remember these kind of problems. I wonder why it doesn't get almost any love with companies. Our CEO is the former CEO of NetBeans, and our devs use IDEA

JBert

@Lukfi said in The "I hate Java club"?:

Our CEO is the former CEO of NetBeans, and our devs use IDEA

You know, there could be good reasons why he left his former position...

Unperverted Vixen

@Lukfi said in The "I hate Java club"?:

Just out of curiosity, when was this?

About a year ago.

Admittedly, I was working in someone else's project (an open source JIRA plugin I needed to customize), and it was the first time I'd touched Java in nine years. I could well have been doing something wrong.

Lukfi

@JBert said in The "I hate Java club"?:

You know, there could be good reasons why he left his former position...

The reason was that he sold NetBeans to Sun. That was in 1999 :)

dkf

@Lukfi said in The "I hate Java club"?:

1999

Nearly 20 years ago… Doesn't time fly?

The &quot;I hate Java club&quot;?

The "I hate Java club"?