Security
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On my way home, I pass through the Port Authority of NY bus terminal. They randonly have 2-3 police officers at the final staircase to the area where I get on line to wait for my bus (there are ~30 gates). The police randomly check any bag you might be carrying. It's supposed to be a deterrent to terrorists.
I have a bad ankle and knee on the same leg, so I tend to avoid stairs. As such, I take what turns out to be - unguarded - elevator to my floor and completely bypass the police checkpoint.
This elevator is accessible from the NYC Subway, and three public access areas.
Whoops!
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I told you no using the internet after you deploy. Hassan will hear of this.
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It's probably mostly Security Theater, just like TSA checkpoints.
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@snoofle said:
I have a bad ankle and knee on the same leg
I'd be worried if your bad ankle didn't have a knee on that same leg.
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"The other day I saw a man with wooden legs and real feet."
-- Stephen Wright
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@snoofle said:
On my way home, I pass through the Port Authority of NY bus terminal. They randonly have 2-3 police officers at the final staircase to the area where I get on line to wait for my bus (there are ~30 gates). The police randomly check any bag you might be carrying. It's supposed to be a deterrent to terrorists.
I have a bad ankle and knee on the same leg, so I tend to avoid stairs. As such, I take what turns out to be - unguarded - elevator to my floor and completely bypass the police checkpoint.
This elevator is accessible from the NYC Subway, and three public access areas.
Whoops!I call bullshit. I pass through PABT every day as well, and I've never once seen anyone's bag checked.
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@russ0519 said:
@snoofle said:
On my way home, I pass through the Port Authority of NY bus terminal. They randonly have 2-3 police officers at the final staircase to the area where I get on line to wait for my bus (there are ~30 gates). The police randomly check any bag you might be carrying. It's supposed to be a deterrent to terrorists.
I have a bad ankle and knee on the same leg, so I tend to avoid stairs. As such, I take what turns out to be - unguarded - elevator to my floor and completely bypass the police checkpoint.
This elevator is accessible from the NYC Subway, and three public access areas.
Whoops!I call bullshit. I pass through PABT every day as well, and I've never once seen anyone's bag checked.
I call bullshit on your bullshit. Those random checks do happen. I've been subjected to them in the subways of both New York and Boston. I don't doubt they happen for buses, too.
Plus it seems like a really dumb thing for Snoofie to lie over.
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@snoofle said:
On my way home, I pass through the Port Authority of NY bus terminal. They randonly have 2-3 police officers at the final staircase to the area where I get on line to wait for my bus (there are ~30 gates). The police randomly check any bag you might be carrying. It's supposed to be a deterrent to terrorists.
I have a bad ankle and knee on the same leg, so I tend to avoid stairs. As such, I take what turns out to be - unguarded - elevator to my floor and completely bypass the police checkpoint.
This elevator is accessible from the NYC Subway, and three public access areas.
Whoops!
I don't know, most terrorists seem to be pretty stupid. You know how they catch most of them? Yep, the FBI set up traps where they sell terrorists bombs. I mean if you get caught buying a bomb from the FBI you're pretty fucking stupid but it happens all the time. It's not like making explosives is rocket science; making the rocket NOT blow up is the HARD part!
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Well it's not like they're wearing the FBI rain jacket or anything.
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@blakeyrat said:
Well it's not like they're wearing the FBI rain jacket or anything.
I guess I never considered that.
Maybe, terrorists are not so stupid after. Maybe, just maybe, they are just lost souls that need a hug.
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@snoofle said:
On my way home, I pass through the Port Authority of NY bus terminal. They randonly have 2-3 police officers at the final staircase to the area where I get on line to wait for my bus (there are ~30 gates). The police randomly check any bag you might be carrying. It's supposed to be a deterrent to terrorists.
I have a bad ankle and knee on the same leg, so I tend to avoid stairs. As such, I take what turns out to be - unguarded - elevator to my floor and completely bypass the police checkpoint.
This elevator is accessible from the NYC Subway, and three public access areas.
Whoops!
We may have passed each other, I have taken that elevator a number of times (though it is my wife with the bad knees). Also, I have been subjected to a bag search twice in the past 5 years. Both time when wearing my camera backpack, and my laptop backpack [I look pretty much like a tall skinny turtle]
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@DOA said:
I told you no using the internet after you deploy. Hassan will hear of this.
And where was Hassan while Osama was downloading p0rn and getting a huge roaming bill from Verizon?
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@this_code_sucks said:
I don't know, most terrorists seem to be pretty stupid. You know how they catch most of them? Yep, the FBI set up traps where they sell terrorists bombs.
The interesting question here is how many of them were actually terrorists before the FBI offered to sell them a bomb, vs just ranting idiots.
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@pjt33 said:
@this_code_sucks said:
I don't know, most terrorists seem to be pretty stupid. You know how they catch most of them? Yep, the FBI set up traps where they sell terrorists bombs.
The interesting question here is how many of them were actually terrorists before the FBI offered to sell them a bomb, vs just ranting idiots.Well, presumably all of them. If you're in the type of person to buy a bomb, you're probably a terrorist.
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@this_code_sucks said:
I don't know, most terrorists seem to be pretty stupid. You know how they catch most of them? Yep, the FBI set up traps where they sell terrorists bombs. I mean if you get caught buying a bomb from the FBI you're pretty fucking stupid but it happens all the time. It's not like making explosives is rocket science; making the rocket NOT blow up is the HARD part!
Oh, there's a little more to it than that. The FBI apparently seek out people who mayhave terrorist tendencies, set them up in an elaborate sting involving selling them what they'd need to perform a terrorist attack, and then clap themselves on the back once they've "uncovered" the plot that they basically set up in the first place. The thing is, how many of those people would really have done anything if they hadn't been approached and told they would be supplied everything they needed? More security theatre if you ask me.
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@ASheridan said:
@this_code_sucks said:
I don't know, most terrorists seem to be pretty stupid. You know how they catch most of them? Yep, the FBI set up traps where they sell terrorists bombs. I mean if you get caught buying a bomb from the FBI you're pretty fucking stupid but it happens all the time. It's not like making explosives is rocket science; making the rocket NOT blow up is the HARD part!
Oh, there's a little more to it than that. The FBI apparently seek out people who mayhave terrorist tendencies, set them up in an elaborate sting involving selling them what they'd need to perform a terrorist attack, and then clap themselves on the back once they've "uncovered" the plot that they basically set up in the first place. The thing is, how many of those people would really have done anything if they hadn't been approached and told they would be supplied everything they needed? More security theatre if you ask me.So if someone says "I'd murder someone if I had a gun" and then I hand them an unloaded gun, I'm the one who "set them up"?
Look, I know thinking isn't your strong suit, as pretty much everything you've ever said has proven, but maybe you should leave important topics to the adults. Like, maybe there's a bake sale you can arrange, mmkay?
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@morbiuswilters said:
Look, I know thinking isn't your strong suit, as pretty much everything you've ever said has proven, but maybe you should leave important topics to the adults. Like, maybe there's a bake sale you can arrange, mmkay?
Oh, here we go again, someone didn't give you your dose of valium this morning hmm?
How about you go read some of the articles on TechDirt, it might give you a bit of a better understanding about what you're on about before you open your mouth amongst your betters again.
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@snoofle said:
On my way home, I pass through the Port Authority of NY bus terminal. They randonly have 2-3 police officers at the final staircase to the area where I get on line to wait for my bus (there are ~30 gates). The police randomly check any bag you might be carrying. It's supposed to be a deterrent to terrorists.
When I flew to Toronto via Newark in 1998 or 1999, the security at Newark didn't strike me as particularly impressive. (Having said that, I had just flown in from Germany, where they do take this sort of thing rather seriously.) Looks like things haven't changed too much since then.I have a bad ankle and knee on the same leg, so I tend to avoid stairs. As such, I take what turns out to be - unguarded - elevator to my floor and completely bypass the police checkpoint.
This elevator is accessible from the NYC Subway, and three public access areas.
Whoops!
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@this_code_sucks said:
making the rocket NOT blow up is the HARD part!
Also the least fun part. I mean, c'mon! Who doesn't like a good explosion now and again?
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@snoofle said:
...
As such, I take what turns out to be - unguarded - elevator to my floor and completely bypass the police checkpoint.
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I don't know if anyone was looking but you were on camera. You have plenty of very real complaints. This wasn't one.
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@pjt33 said:
@this_code_sucks said:
I don't know, most terrorists seem to be pretty stupid. You know how they catch most of them? Yep, the FBI set up traps where they sell terrorists bombs.
The interesting question here is how many of them were actually terrorists before the FBI offered to sell them a bomb, vs just ranting idiots.At the point where you're exchanging money for a bomb, is there any practical difference between these two groups?
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@blakeyrat said:
@pjt33 said:
@this_code_sucks said:
I don't know, most terrorists seem to be pretty stupid. You know how they catch most of them? Yep, the FBI set up traps where they sell terrorists bombs.
The interesting question here is how many of them were actually terrorists before the FBI offered to sell them a bomb, vs just ranting idiots.
At the point where you're exchanging money for a bomb, is there any practical difference between these two groups?Also, the way these things tend to work is that the suspect thinks he has a real bomb, and they arrest him when he attempts to set it off. I'm sure there are legitimate entrapment issues to deal with whenever this happens, but I haven't heard anything substantive in that respect on any cases so far.
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@oheso said:
@this_code_sucks said:
making the rocket NOT blow up is the HARD part!
Also the least fun part. I mean, c'mon! Who doesn't like a good explosion now and again?
That's what HE said.
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@blakeyrat said:
@pjt33 said:
The first group would be a subset of the second. You don't hear about the ranting idiots who can't be convinced to put their money where their mouth is.@this_code_sucks said:
I don't know, most terrorists seem to be pretty stupid. You know how they catch most of them? Yep, the FBI set up traps where they sell terrorists bombs.
The interesting question here is how many of them were actually terrorists before the FBI offered to sell them a bomb, vs just ranting idiots.At the point where you're exchanging money for a bomb, is there any practical difference between these two groups?
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@blakeyrat said:
At the point where you're exchanging money for a bomb, is there any practical difference between these two groups?
No, but if you're a US taxpayer you might not consider turning ranting idiots into terrorists and then imprisoning them for many years to be a good use of your money.
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@pjt33 said:
@blakeyrat said:
At the point where you're exchanging money for a bomb, is there any practical difference between these two groups?
No, but if you're a US taxpayer you might not consider turning ranting idiots into terrorists and then imprisoning them for many years to be a good use of your money.Is the taxpayer money actually going toward turning the ranting idiots into terrorists, or just separating the two groups? Either way, I'm fine with the relatively trivial amount of money being spent this way.
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@ASheridan said:
The FBI apparently seek out people who mayhave terrorist tendencies, set them up in an elaborate sting involving selling them what they'd need to perform a terrorist attack, and then clap themselves on the back once they've "uncovered" the plot that they basically set up in the first place.
If that were true, they DEFINITELY would have set up a sting for me by now...
@morbiuswilters said:
So if someone says "I'd murder someone if I had a gun" and then I hand them an unloaded gun, I'm the one who "set them up"?
"Set them up" more in the sense of "provided them with tools they needed to carry out their plan" and not "tricked them into committing murder"... but yes.
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@russ0519 said:
I call bullshit.
Sorry, but it has happened to me personally a few times - they stop every hundreth person (or something like that)
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@morbiuswilters said:
@russ0519 said:
@snoofle said:
On my way home, I pass through the Port Authority of NY bus terminal. They randonly have 2-3 police officers at the final staircase to the area where I get on line to wait for my bus (there are ~30 gates). The police randomly check any bag you might be carrying. It's supposed to be a deterrent to terrorists.
I have a bad ankle and knee on the same leg, so I tend to avoid stairs. As such, I take what turns out to be - unguarded - elevator to my floor and completely bypass the police checkpoint.
This elevator is accessible from the NYC Subway, and three public access areas.
Whoops!I call bullshit. I pass through PABT every day as well, and I've never once seen anyone's bag checked.
I call bullshit on your bullshit. Those random checks do happen. I've been subjected to them in the subways of both New York and Boston. I don't doubt they happen for buses, too.
Plus it seems like a really dumb thing for Snoofie to lie over.
Well I've been taking the PABT for years, and I've never seen these police checkpoints. They may be down in the subway, but that's really to check people going into the subway. I may have been checked once, when entering PABT at like 2AM, but I don't remember if they checked my bag, or just if I have a ticket. I think its mostly to deter homeless people from spending the night there.
As for the elevator, no way is it accessible from the subway. That would mean you can bypass paying the fare, and they take that matter very seriously.
They do have army men with machine guns in PABT pretty much all the time. Not sure what good they do other, but I'm sure they scare the shit out of would be terrorists.
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@ekolis said:
@ASheridan said:
The FBI apparently seek out people who mayhave terrorist tendencies, set them up in an elaborate sting involving selling them what they'd need to perform a terrorist attack, and then clap themselves on the back once they've "uncovered" the plot that they basically set up in the first place.
If that were true, they DEFINITELY would have set up a sting for me by now...
@morbiuswilters said:
So if someone says "I'd murder someone if I had a gun" and then I hand them an unloaded gun, I'm the one who "set them up"?
"Set them up" more in the sense of "provided them with tools they needed to carry out their plan" and not "tricked them into committing murder"... but yes.
See [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment]Entrapment[/url]. Providing the opportunity is not considered enough to waive criminal liability. There's good reason for this. It's why police can pose as drug dealers to catch people attempting to break the law, but they can only offer the opportunity to break the law, not push you to do it.
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@snoofle said:
@russ0519 said:
I call bullshit.
Sorry, but it has happened to me personally a few times - they stop every hundreth person (or something like that)I'm always amazed with what people in the US will put up with in the name of security. I'm just surprised by the contrast between people who will fight tooth and nail to retain the ability to easily purchase firearms but will allow airport security to molest them without complaint.
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@boomzilla said:
@pjt33 said:
@blakeyrat said:
At the point where you're exchanging money for a bomb, is there any practical difference between these two groups?
No, but if you're a US taxpayer you might not consider turning ranting idiots into terrorists and then imprisoning them for many years to be a good use of your money.Is the taxpayer money actually going toward turning the ranting idiots into terrorists, or just separating the two groups? Either way, I'm fine with the relatively trivial amount of money being spent this way.
I'd be thrilled if all of DHS's budget went to buying fake bombs to re-sell to ranting idiots and/or terrorists. Anything that keeps them from feeling me up at the airport, I'm good with.
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@_gaffer said:
@snoofle said:
@russ0519 said:
I call bullshit.
Sorry, but it has happened to me personally a few times - they stop every hundreth person (or something like that)I'm always amazed with what people in the US will put up with in the name of security. I'm just surprised by the contrast between people who will fight tooth and nail to retain the ability to easily purchase firearms but will allow airport security to molest them without complaint.
The government in the US doesn't represent the people as well as it should, that's the disconnect you're having.
Also, sadly, there are a lot of people who support having those officers there. And the type of people who support that (generalizing) also vote more often than the type of people who don't. So the problem becomes, it's impossible for a politician to run on a platform of reducing homeland security spending, because they'd never get elected. It would be like a local politician promising to remove police officers from the street, it simply can't be done.
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@blakeyrat said:
@_gaffer said:
@snoofle said:
@russ0519 said:
I call bullshit.
Sorry, but it has happened to me personally a few times - they stop every hundreth person (or something like that)I'm always amazed with what people in the US will put up with in the name of security. I'm just surprised by the contrast between people who will fight tooth and nail to retain the ability to easily purchase firearms but will allow airport security to molest them without complaint.
The government in the US doesn't represent the people as well as it should, that's the disconnect you're having.
Also, sadly, there are a lot of people who support having those officers there. And the type of people who support that (generalizing) also vote more often than the type of people who don't. So the problem becomes, it's impossible for a politician to run on a platform of reducing homeland security spending, because they'd never get elected. It would be like a local politician promising to remove police officers from the street, it simply can't be done.
+1
And I know it's already been mentioned, but the FBI waits until after the suspect PLANTS AND ATTEMPTS TO DENONATE THE BOMB. It's not like they just buy the bomb and are arrested then and there like it's a drug deal. I'm ok with this shit because unlike the stupid checkpoints, these do not erode liberties in any way; unless you are talking about your right to blow shit up.
I would say the terrorists that don't get caught this way are pretty fucking stupid too. I mean how dumb do you have to be to believe you will get 70 virgins when you blow your self up?
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@this_code_sucks said:
I would say the terrorists that don't get caught this way are pretty fucking stupid too. I mean how dumb do you have to be to believe you will get 70 virgins when you blow your self up?
How dumb to you have to be to allow incredible restriction of your civil liberty because of the actions of a few lunatics who don't seem to understand that you can detonate a bomb without killing yourself?
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@this_code_sucks said:
I mean how dumb do you have to be to believe you will get 70 virgins when you blow your self up?
About as dumb as you have to be to assume that terrorist is the same thing as Muslim
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@this_code_sucks said:
how dumb do you have to be to believe you will get 70 virgins when you blow your self up?
It is not a matter of dumb, it is matter of placement, putting it near a gaming/sci fi convention with any luck you can land even more virgins.
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@ASheridan said:
@this_code_sucks said:
I mean how dumb do you have to be to believe you will get 70 virgins when you blow your self up?
About as dumb as you have to be to assume that terrorist is the same thing as MuslimOK. Here's another one for you: How dumb do you have to be to believe stupid straw men like the one you just brought up?
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They check any given station in midtown about twice a year. Outside Midtown about once every two years. They probably do the PABT four times a year.
Either way it's just security theater. I've probably walked past a checkpoint into or out of a subway station a half dozen times in ten years -- and have yet to be stopped and searched, despite always carrying a rather large bag. Maybe it's because I'm female. The checkpoints at the baseball stadiums or MSG are far more intrusive. They won't even let you carry a bottle of water in (although I'm convinced that's just to make you buy a $5 bottle at the concession stand instead).
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@pjt33 said:
@blakeyrat said:
At the point where you're exchanging money for a bomb, is there any practical difference between these two groups?
No, but if you're a US taxpayer you might not consider turning ranting idiots into terrorists and then imprisoning them for many years to be a good use of your money.Would you rather the FBI sell this person a fake bomb, or that a terrorist group (it being likely that the group knows about this person just like the FBI), sell a real bomb to this person?
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@sprained said:
Either way it's just security theater.
I often wonder why people think that security theater serves no purpose.
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@_gaffer said:
@this_code_sucks said:
I would say the terrorists that don't get caught this way are pretty fucking stupid too. I mean how dumb do you have to be to believe you will get 70 virgins when you blow your self up?
How dumb to you have to be to allow incredible restriction of your civil liberty because of the actions of a few lunatics who don't seem to understand that you can detonate a bomb without killing yourself?
And again, here we go with the generalizations. You assume because I don't have a problem with the FBI arresting people WHO BUY AND ATTEMPT TO DENTONATE BOMBS that I'm on board with the entire war on terror and detaining people without a trial, ect. Fuck you.
The real idiots are people who think there are only two sides to any given issue; people like you.
This, like most things this is a very complex issue. Yes the US government does a lot of shitty things in the name of the war on terror; it's true. But that being true does not negate the fact that there really are some bat shit crazy terrorists that want to blow shit up.
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@ASheridan said:
@this_code_sucks said:
I mean how dumb do you have to be to believe you will get 70 virgins when you blow your self up?
About as dumb as you have to be to assume that terrorist is the same thing as Muslim
I never said all terrorists are Muslims.
I did say that all Muslims have at least one imaginary friend; but never on this forum.
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@morbiuswilters said:
@pjt33 said:
@this_code_sucks said:
I don't know, most terrorists seem to be pretty stupid. You know how they catch most of them? Yep, the FBI set up traps where they sell terrorists bombs.
The interesting question here is how many of them were actually terrorists before the FBI offered to sell them a bomb, vs just ranting idiots.Well, presumably all of them. If you're in the type of person to buy a bomb, you're probably a terrorist.
I don't buy it. The whole agent provocateur thing stinks, and is something you expect in despotic states, not democracies. I also have reservations when the FBI pats itself on th back for these busts; it sounds more to me that they have caught terrorist wannabes instead of stopped a real threat.
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@boomzilla said:
@sprained said:
Either way it's just security theater.
I often wonder why people think that security theater serves no purpose.
The implication isn't that it serves no purpose, but that if we're just going to pretend to be secure we could be doing it a lot cheaper.
For example, I could build a "millimeter-wave body scanner" for an airport out of a little plywood, paint, and a $300 netbook for the display. It would work just as well as the ones they're buying for hundreds of thousands of dollars.
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@rstinejr said:
@morbiuswilters said:
@pjt33 said:
@this_code_sucks said:
I don't know, most terrorists seem to be pretty stupid. You know how they catch most of them? Yep, the FBI set up traps where they sell terrorists bombs.
The interesting question here is how many of them were actually terrorists before the FBI offered to sell them a bomb, vs just ranting idiots.Well, presumably all of them. If you're in the type of person to buy a bomb, you're probably a terrorist.
I don't buy it. The whole agent provocateur thing stinks, and is something you expect in despotic states, not democracies. I also have reservations when the FBI pats itself on th back for these busts; it sounds more to me that they have caught terrorist wannabes instead of stopped a real threat.
Are you nucking futs? THEY DID NOT JUST BUY THE BOMB, THEY PLANTED IT AND TRIED TO DETONATE IT TOO!
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@blakeyrat said:
For example, I could build a "millimeter-wave body scanner" for an airport out of a little plywood, paint, and a $300 netbook for the display. It would work just as well as the ones they're buying for hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Ya but you're forgetting about the part where the contractor get paid to make this thing ;)
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@this_code_sucks said:
@blakeyrat said:
So, contractors to the DoD are the real terrorists? I knew it...For example, I could build a "millimeter-wave body scanner" for an airport out of a little plywood, paint, and a $300 netbook for the display. It would work just as well as the ones they're buying for hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Ya but you're forgetting about the part where the contractor get paid to make this thing ;)
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@blakeyrat said:
@boomzilla said:
I often wonder why people think that security theater serves no purpose.
The implication isn't that it serves no purpose, but that if we're just going to pretend to be secure we could be doing it a lot cheaper.For example, I could build a "millimeter-wave body scanner" for an airport out of a little plywood, paint, and a $300 netbook for the display. It would work just as well as the ones they're buying for hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Maybe, but I doubt it, because I don't think that it would rise to the level of plausible security measure. That's not to say there isn't a cheaper way than what actually happened. For one thing, they could simply not order more machines than they actually use.
Frankly, the best thing would be to privatize it and let the airlines run it again. The government's incentives are to do things in more and more costly ways without regard to effectiveness...exactly the opposite of the airlines'.
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@boomzilla said:
I'm sure there are legitimate entrapment issues to deal with whenever this happens, but I haven't heard anything substantive in that respect on any cases so far.
Yeah, but these cases aren't entrapment--not even close. Entrapment would be the FBI finding a disgruntled Muslim (because, come on) and saying "Hey, you know what you should do? Blow some people up." and then persuading him (because, come on) to break the law. The idea for illegal action must come from law enforcement AND law enforcement must convince the criminal to break the law AND the criminal must not have been liable to break the law on his own.
