Software toggles that dont do what they should
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Minor Rant:
Why include a switch to turn stuff off that does only half the job?
"iOS 11: toggling wifi and Bluetooth in Control Centre doesn't actually turn them off"
iOS 11: toggling wifi and Bluetooth in Control Centre doesn't actually turn them off
Quick switch simply disconnects phone from access points and devices rather than turning off the radios, in move criticised by security researchers
I hate this type of shitty interface! Why give the same visual feedback if its really off (I start to doubt if thats possible at all), or only kinda off?
and of course, it's only for the best of the poor confused users
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The toggles, they do nothing?
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@cark said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
The toggles, they do nothing?
Paging @Groaner
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As I've said before: by iDiots for iDiots. This just demonstrates, once again, Apple's outright contempt for the property rights of people who buy their devices. You may think you own your phone, but Apple retains as much control over it as they possibly can.
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The airlines are going to have a field day with this. Did Apple get envious of Samsung's place on a no-fly list?
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@maciejasjmj said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
The airlines are going to have a field day with this. Did Apple get envious of Samsung's place on a no-fly list?
I'm guessing that to turn the radio off, you put it in airplane mode, which is a separate toggle.
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@cark said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
The toggles, they do nothing?
Wherein I'm vaguely reminded of some of Discourse's options that were badly named.
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@r10pez10 said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
There are different meanings and different usages. Each of them serves a purpose.
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@maciejasjmj said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
The airlines are going to have a field day with this. Did Apple get envious of Samsung's place on a no-fly list?
Hasn't the "Turn off your devices" rule been revoked due to no actual incidents?
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@rhywden said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
Turn off your devices" rule
I love asking "does that include all portable electronic devices?"
Crew:: "Yes, sir"
Me: "Is there a Doctor, hopefully a cardiologist on board?"
Crew: "What does that have to do with it?"
Me: "He will be needed when I turn my pacemaker off"
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@pjh said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@cark said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
The toggles, they do nothing?
Wherein I'm vaguely reminded of some of Discourse's options that were badly named.
Found it.
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@rhywden said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@maciejasjmj said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
The airlines are going to have a field day with this. Did Apple get envious of Samsung's place on a no-fly list?
Hasn't the "Turn off your devices" rule been revoked due to no actual incidents?
Last time I flew (couple months ago), they still requested that large electronics and laptops be powered off. (oops, I just closed the cover and put it to sleep) Small ones can stay on as long as they're in airplane mode. Unless you're flying international - then they want everything powered down.
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@dcon said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
Unless you're flying international - then they want everything powered down.
That's usually to do with wanting to work with the regulations at both origin and destination. And cellphone signals when over the ocean (or the Greenland icecap) are functionally absent. A satellite phone would work… but those are expensive and have a lot more powerful transmitters.
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@maciejasjmj said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
The airlines are going to have a field day with this. Did Apple get envious of Samsung's place on a no-fly list?
No airline requires you just to toggle Bluetooth/WiFi off, they also want you to toggle off GSM. This means: they want you to toggle airplane mode and it does actually disable Bluetooth/WiFi, AFAIK.
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BTW, I’ve been thinking about this recently and I asked myself a question: when was the last time I actually toggled any of these off? And then I realized: yeah, I do that sometimes with WiFi, because when I leave my flat and enter the staircase, my phone still thinks it’s connected to my home router but in fact it is not, so internet connection doesn’t work and I need to turn WiFi off so that it forcefully disconnects and then turn it back on, so that I get connected automatically when I come back home. This feature actually saves me a toggle AND makes sure that when I forget to toggle WiFi back on, I won’t be charged for using the cellular plan.
I’m wondering: how many of you actually turns these off and if you have a valid reason other than tinfoil hat.
(INB4: android users, fuck off with your “they’re tracking you” shit. You’re using free google products, so you are the product, google is in the advertising business and actually uses the info it collects about you for making money. So get off your fucking high horse.)
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@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
I’m wondering: how many of you actually turns these off and if you have a valid reason other than tinfoil hat.
I turn my wifi off when I'm in an area with weak signal and I get better service from LTE (
*cough*the restroom at work*cough*). And since I don't use Bluetooth 95% of the time, I normally leave it off to save battery and only turn it on when I need to use it for something specific (ShopKick).
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@unperverted-vixen said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
I’m wondering: how many of you actually turns these off and if you have a valid reason other than tinfoil hat.
I turn my wifi off when I'm in an area with weak signal and I get better service from LTE (
*cough*the restroom at work*cough*).I guess the Apple way does this for you: turning off WiFi disconnects you from the current network.
And since I don't use Bluetooth 95% of the time, I normally leave it off to save battery and only turn it on when I need to use it for something specific (ShopKick).
I thought that since 4.0 Bluetooth’s impact on battery life is marginal?
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@cark said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
The toggles, they do nothing?
"Marcus Vinicius, you are no longer my friend."
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@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
I’m wondering: how many of you actually turns these off and if you have a valid reason other than tinfoil hat
My phone seems to have a really aggressive roaming profile. I have four APs in my house due to my house hating Wi-Fi. Walking from one of the house to another, the AP in the former location is still "heard", so my phone stubbornly keeps connected to it, despite a much stronger (and clearer! SNR is actually more important in these situations!) AP being six feet away.
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@tsaukpaetra said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
I’m wondering: how many of you actually turns these off and if you have a valid reason other than tinfoil hat
My phone seems to have a really aggressive roaming profile. I have four APs in my house due to my house hating Wi-Fi. Walking from one of the house to another, the AP in the former location is still "heard", so my phone stubbornly keeps connected to it, despite a much stronger (and clearer! SNR is actually more important in these situations!) AP being six feet away.So you basically turn it off to turn it back on so that you disconnect from AP1 and connect to AP2 instead?
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@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@tsaukpaetra said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
I’m wondering: how many of you actually turns these off and if you have a valid reason other than tinfoil hat
My phone seems to have a really aggressive roaming profile. I have four APs in my house due to my house hating Wi-Fi. Walking from one of the house to another, the AP in the former location is still "heard", so my phone stubbornly keeps connected to it, despite a much stronger (and clearer! SNR is actually more important in these situations!) AP being six feet away.So you basically turn it off to turn it back on so that you disconnect from AP1 and connect to AP2 instead?
Yep. Mind you, the UI doesn't show the difference (because they're all the same SSID, stupid stupid stupid), but indeed this is the best and easiest way to do it.
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@tsaukpaetra said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@tsaukpaetra said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
I’m wondering: how many of you actually turns these off and if you have a valid reason other than tinfoil hat
My phone seems to have a really aggressive roaming profile. I have four APs in my house due to my house hating Wi-Fi. Walking from one of the house to another, the AP in the former location is still "heard", so my phone stubbornly keeps connected to it, despite a much stronger (and clearer! SNR is actually more important in these situations!) AP being six feet away.So you basically turn it off to turn it back on so that you disconnect from AP1 and connect to AP2 instead?
Yep. Mind you, the UI doesn't show the difference (because they're all the same SSID, stupid stupid stupid), but indeed this is the best and easiest way to do it.
So you don’t really want turn off WiFi, i.e. the way iOS works now wouldn’t hurt your flow: toggle off would disconnect you from AP1 and toggle on would automatically connect you to AP2. (Could even be you wouldn’t need the toggle on, I’m not sure.)
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@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@tsaukpaetra said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@tsaukpaetra said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
I’m wondering: how many of you actually turns these off and if you have a valid reason other than tinfoil hat
My phone seems to have a really aggressive roaming profile. I have four APs in my house due to my house hating Wi-Fi. Walking from one of the house to another, the AP in the former location is still "heard", so my phone stubbornly keeps connected to it, despite a much stronger (and clearer! SNR is actually more important in these situations!) AP being six feet away.So you basically turn it off to turn it back on so that you disconnect from AP1 and connect to AP2 instead?
Yep. Mind you, the UI doesn't show the difference (because they're all the same SSID, stupid stupid stupid), but indeed this is the best and easiest way to do it.
So you don’t really want turn off WiFi, i.e. the way iOS works now wouldn’t hurt your flow: toggle off would disconnect you from AP1 and toggle on would automatically connect you to AP2. (Could even be you wouldn’t need the toggle on, I’m not sure.)
I... didn't say it would hurt my workflow. :/
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@tsaukpaetra said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@tsaukpaetra said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@tsaukpaetra said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
I’m wondering: how many of you actually turns these off and if you have a valid reason other than tinfoil hat
My phone seems to have a really aggressive roaming profile. I have four APs in my house due to my house hating Wi-Fi. Walking from one of the house to another, the AP in the former location is still "heard", so my phone stubbornly keeps connected to it, despite a much stronger (and clearer! SNR is actually more important in these situations!) AP being six feet away.So you basically turn it off to turn it back on so that you disconnect from AP1 and connect to AP2 instead?
Yep. Mind you, the UI doesn't show the difference (because they're all the same SSID, stupid stupid stupid), but indeed this is the best and easiest way to do it.
So you don’t really want turn off WiFi, i.e. the way iOS works now wouldn’t hurt your flow: toggle off would disconnect you from AP1 and toggle on would automatically connect you to AP2. (Could even be you wouldn’t need the toggle on, I’m not sure.)
I... didn't say it would hurt my workflow. :/
Not saying you did, I’m just wondering if this change will really hurt anyone’s workflow. ;)
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@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
This feature actually saves me a toggle AND makes sure that when I forget to toggle WiFi back on, I won’t be charged for using the cellular plan.
IOW, it's not a bug, it's a feature™
Edit: fixed an accalia
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@timebandit said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
This feature actually saves me a toggle AND makes sure that when I forget to toggle WiFi back on, I won’t be charged for using the cellular plan.
IOW, it's not a big, it's a feature™
Well, I hope you meant “bug”. It certainly isn’t a bug, since it’s a documented behavior. This makes it a feature. However the question is, is it a good feature?
And that’s why I asked if it would interfere with peoples’ workflows. ;)
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@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
Well, I hope you meant “bug”. It certainly isn’t a bug, since it’s a documented behavior. This makes it a feature. However the question is, is it a good feature?
A bad design is just as much a bug as a bad implementation.
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@masonwheeler said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
Well, I hope you meant “bug”. It certainly isn’t a bug, since it’s a documented behavior. This makes it a feature. However the question is, is it a good feature?
A bad design is just as much a bug as a bad implementation.
Like clicking "Start" to "Turn Off"?
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@rhywden said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@maciejasjmj said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
The airlines are going to have a field day with this. Did Apple get envious of Samsung's place on a no-fly list?
Hasn't the "Turn off your devices" rule been revoked due to no actual incidents?
PEDs don't need to be turned off in most typical circumstances (except for departure and landing), however, when an ILS Category II or Category III approach is performed, they must be turned off. This is mainly due to the fact that in any II/III approach, the visibility is so low that if there were to be any interference, it would go uncorrected due to the lack of ground references.
EDIT: Since this is a circumstance where it must be actually powered down, I don't think the fake switching would be an issue, since the phone is off anyway
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@masonwheeler said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
Well, I hope you meant “bug”. It certainly isn’t a bug, since it’s a documented behavior. This makes it a feature. However the question is, is it a good feature?
A bad design is just as much a bug as a bad implementation.
FTW?Again, show me a person who’s workflow this change will affect negatively, because I’m genuinely curious.
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@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@masonwheeler said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
Well, I hope you meant “bug”. It certainly isn’t a bug, since it’s a documented behavior. This makes it a feature. However the question is, is it a good feature?
A bad design is just as much a bug as a bad implementation.
FTW?Again, show me a person who’s workflow this change will affect negatively, because I’m genuinely curious.
Anyone trying to avoid bluetooth bugs leading to a compromise of their phone?
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@dreikin said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
Anyone trying to avoid bluetooth bugs leading to a compromise of their phone?
There is never any bug on an iPhone
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@timebandit said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@dreikin said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
Anyone trying to avoid bluetooth bugs leading to a compromise of their phone?
There is never any bug on an iPhone
But there might be bugs in an iPhone!
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@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
how many of you actually turns these off and if you have a valid reason other than tinfoil hat.
If I really need to save battery life, turning WiFi and Bluetooth off helps with that a lot.
Also, if I was at a place like Defcon, there's no way I'd leave either of them on, and if I can't turn them off from my phone, that's just retarded. Hell, airplane mode is probably the best bet there - you don't want to leave that kind of stuff on at a place like that
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@sloosecannon said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
you don't want to leave that kind of stuff on at a place like that
But it could be so much fun!
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@dreikin said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@masonwheeler said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
Well, I hope you meant “bug”. It certainly isn’t a bug, since it’s a documented behavior. This makes it a feature. However the question is, is it a good feature?
A bad design is just as much a bug as a bad implementation.
FTW?Again, show me a person who’s workflow this change will affect negatively, because I’m genuinely curious.
Anyone trying to avoid bluetooth bugs leading to a compromise of their phone?
Yeah, that’s what I thought about, but I never learned about any Bluetooth bug before it got fixed, and so I never had the urge to turn it off. I know that’s what the security specialists don’t like about this, I’m just not sure if it really affects users.
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@sloosecannon said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
how many of you actually turns these off and if you have a valid reason other than tinfoil hat.
If I really need to save battery life, turning WiFi and Bluetooth off helps with that a lot.
There is a feature called “low battery consumption mode” or whatever (I’ve iOS in Polish, not sure how this translates).
Also, if I was at a place like Defcon, there's no way I'd leave either of them on, and if I can't turn them off from my phone, that's just retarded. Hell, airplane mode is probably the best bet there - you don't want to leave that kind of stuff on at a place like that
Oh yeah, airplane mode still works.
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@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@masonwheeler said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
Well, I hope you meant “bug”. It certainly isn’t a bug, since it’s a documented behavior. This makes it a feature. However the question is, is it a good feature?
A bad design is just as much a bug as a bad implementation.
FTW?Again, show me a person who’s workflow this change will affect negatively, because I’m genuinely curious.
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@thecpuwizard said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
I love asking "does that include all portable electronic devices?"
Crew:: "Yes, sir"
Me: "Is there a Doctor, hopefully a cardiologist on board?"
Crew: "What does that have to do with it?"
Me: "He will be needed when I turn my pacemaker off"Even if it included just the ones that include radio transmitter—modern pacemakers do have bluetooth. It is cheaper than the older custom chips and it means that the pacemaker can inform the doctor about changes in the patient's health via application installed on the patient's phone rather than needing special hardware.
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@dcon said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
Last time I flew (couple months ago), they still requested that large electronics and laptops be powered off. (oops, I just closed the cover and put it to sleep) Small ones can stay on as long as they're in airplane mode. Unless you're flying international - then they want everything powered down.
It is currently very much airline-dependent. The rules from authorities were relaxed in most of the world, but sometimes the airlines keep it simple and require more than the authority demands and some keep it simple and require the most strict thing any of the authorities with jurisdiction over any of their operation requires.
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I had a funny one
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/20643516/switchpreference-switches-the-other-one
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@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
There is a feature called “low battery consumption mode” or whatever (I’ve iOS in Polish, not sure how this translates).
Does that shut the WiFi and Bluetooth off? What if I want WiFi on? Isn't it simpler to make it controlled by the user?
@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
Oh yeah, airplane mode still works.
Well yea, but if I'm going somewhere that I feel threatened (Defcon is a somewhat contrived example, sure, but even a conference or a large gathering of people might be a hotspot for exploits like this that can just collect hacked devices en-masse), I'd like to have the ability to shut off the freaking radio without making my phone unusable* in the process.
*OK, yes, it's technically usable offline, but its most useful functions are missing.
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@sloosecannon said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
There is a feature called “low battery consumption mode” or whatever (I’ve iOS in Polish, not sure how this translates).
Does that shut the WiFi and Bluetooth off?
Yup.
What if I want WiFi on? Isn't it simpler to make it controlled by the user?
You can control it from the settings menu, just not from control center. It is certainly “easier”, but it doesn’t make it a good design. My bet is the usage stats they collected showed them that people don’t really use them to turn any of these permanently and realized that it makes it harder to use airdrop.
@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
Oh yeah, airplane mode still works.
Well yea, but if I'm going somewhere that I feel threatened (Defcon is a somewhat contrived example, sure, but even a conference or a large gathering of people might be a hotspot for exploits like this that can just collect hacked devices en-masse), I'd like to have the ability to shut off the freaking radio without making my phone unusable* in the process.
*OK, yes, it's technically usable offline, but its most useful functions are missing.
Ok, so I see one use case this would hinder.
Of course, you still can turn these off in the settings menu, however it will turn itself back on at 5 o’clock. I guess this wouldn’t help you. I mean, in the defconf situation, because for the conference scenario it has you covered.
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@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@sloosecannon said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
There is a feature called “low battery consumption mode” or whatever (I’ve iOS in Polish, not sure how this translates).
Does that shut the WiFi and Bluetooth off?
Yup.
What if I want WiFi on? Isn't it simpler to make it controlled by the user?
You can control it from the settings menu, just not from control center. It is certainly “easier”, but it doesn’t make it a good design. My bet is the usage stats they collected showed them that people don’t really use them to turn any of these permanently and realized that it makes it harder to use airdrop.
@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
Oh yeah, airplane mode still works.
Well yea, but if I'm going somewhere that I feel threatened (Defcon is a somewhat contrived example, sure, but even a conference or a large gathering of people might be a hotspot for exploits like this that can just collect hacked devices en-masse), I'd like to have the ability to shut off the freaking radio without making my phone unusable* in the process.
*OK, yes, it's technically usable offline, but its most useful functions are missing.
Ok, so I see one use case this would hinder.
Of course, you still can turn these off in the settings menu, however it will turn itself back on at 5 o’clock. I guess this wouldn’t help you. I mean, in the defconf situation, because for the conference scenario it has you covered.
But here's the issue.
You're a regular old guy who doesn't know much about tech, AKA your average smartphone user.
You see in the news that WiFi and Bluetooth are vulnerable. Maybe your techie friend pings you and says "hey, make sure to shut off Bluetooth and WiFi until the next software update, that way you don't get hacked".
So you go to settings.
With Android, you see this:
Oh! So I have to go into settings to actually turn it off!
No such warning on the iOS version.
It's the same Apple philosophy of "make everything hidden and nice for the user". Only we don't live in a perfect world, and everything doesn't "just work". Hiding information from the user is usually a bad sign - you can cut down on extraneous information, sure, but outright lying and telling them "your WiFi is off" when it's not - that's downright evil!
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@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
I’m wondering: how many of you actually turns these off and if you have a valid reason other than tinfoil hat.
On my iPod I have both wifi and bluetooth off because I mainly use it when riding my bike, where there’s no network I could possibly connect to, so I might as well save some charge. I only turn them on when I actually want the device to connect to something. On my iPad, wifi is always on because that I use at home, but with no need to connect it to anything via bluetooth, I’ve turned it off for pretty much the same reason as on the iPod. On my computer, the only reason bluetooth is on is because the mouse needs it, and wifi is off because I have an ethernet cable plugged into it.
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@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
I’ve iOS in Polish, not sure how this translates
Switch languages and check? :)
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@sloosecannon well, while I do agree that communication should be better in this case, I can’t agree with your notion that hiding information from the user is a bad design. It’s the opposite. The interface should do what the user needs it to do, the user shouldn’t care what actually happens. We’re used to verbose interfaces because they guard the user against bad design. With good design there’s no need for verbosity.
Wait, wait, before you yell at me that this feature is bad design: I admitted the communication here could’ve been better, it’s the functionality itself that seems good to me.
ETA So yeah, while the idea is good in this case, the design is bad. I’d especially love a pop up to reenable WiFi/Bluetooth at 5 o’clock. Again, the sole idea to reenable these is cool, but the comms should be better.
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@kt_ said in Software toggles that dont do what they should:
@sloosecannon well, while I do agree that communication should be better in this case, I can’t agree with your notion that hiding information from the user is a bad design. It’s the opposite. The interface should do what the user needs it to do, the user shouldn’t care what actually happens. We’re used to verbose interfaces because they guard the user against bad design. With good design there’s no need for verbosity.
Wait, wait, before you yell at me that this feature is bad design: I admitted the communication here could’ve been better, it’s the functionality itself that seems good to me.
Right, I think I worded that poorly too.
When I say "hiding information from the user", what I really mean is outright lying. Like I said above, what I really do not like about this is the fact that it lies "Your WiFi is off", not necessarily the feature itself (since my favorite OS also does that, just with better communication).
So, it sounds kinda like we're in violent agreement here!
