What markup format do you prefer?
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@bb36e said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@kt_ alternatively, we fix this in hardware and everyone brings back hardware keyboards on phones
That's a cool idea, especially this year, 10 years after the first touchscreen-only phone: let's invalidate all we learned throughout the past decade.
Hey, having come to that, let's move back to Nokias! :D
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@kt_ I have a Nokia in my pocket right now.
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@blakeyrat said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@kt_ I have a Nokia in my pocket right now.
That's not cool. Give it back to the poor grandpa you stole it from.
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@kt_ said in What markup format do you prefer?:
let's invalidate all we learned throughout the past decade.
looks like we still have a lot more learning to do
https://twitter.com/vojtastavik/status/907911237983449088/video/1
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@kt_ said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@gąska said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@raceprouk said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@blakeyrat said in What markup format do you prefer?:
If I needed a list, why would I (the naive user) type an asterisk? Especially if I'd just established in your previous paragraph that an asterisk is used to denote italics. (Or, from my previous experience in other applications, would expect it to denote boldface.)
IIRC, it also makes a list if you use hyphens.
- A list
- with hyphens
Now, how multiparagraph points work? How sublists work? Have you tried having multiple separate numbered lists in one post?
Why the fuck would you want that? It's a forum, not a system for writing publishable documents.
OK, you can argue sublists is something that's almost never used in casual posting. But multiple numbered lists one after another, that's something that pops up from time to time, just like lists with elements out of order or intentionally missing numbers.
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@bb36e I think you \________/ wrong thread.
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@gąska said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@kt_ said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@gąska said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@raceprouk said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@blakeyrat said in What markup format do you prefer?:
If I needed a list, why would I (the naive user) type an asterisk? Especially if I'd just established in your previous paragraph that an asterisk is used to denote italics. (Or, from my previous experience in other applications, would expect it to denote boldface.)
IIRC, it also makes a list if you use hyphens.
- A list
- with hyphens
Now, how multiparagraph points work? How sublists work? Have you tried having multiple separate numbered lists in one post?
Why the fuck would you want that? It's a forum, not a system for writing publishable documents.
OK, you can argue sublists is something that's almost never used in casual posting. But multiple numbered lists one after another, that's something that pops up from time to time, just like lists with elements out of order or intentionally missing numbers.
Which is, I believe, something that people around here like to make a big deal of, while in fact no one in the world really cares. We love being spoiled primadonnas complaining about little things that are completely unimportant.
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@kt_ don't tell me you've never seen the "7. There is no number 6." joke on any other forum.
We make a big deal out of it because no regular user ever does. I've seen people being OK with a point-and-click adventures exhausting all RAM due to memory leak. "Whatever, I'll just restart the game every 15 minutes." Also, people are insanely good at adapting to shitty conditions and terrible on telling what would improve their condition. Touch screens were treated as toys without real value before iPhone made it an essential part of every phone.
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@gąska said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@kt_ said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@gąska said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@raceprouk said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@blakeyrat said in What markup format do you prefer?:
If I needed a list, why would I (the naive user) type an asterisk? Especially if I'd just established in your previous paragraph that an asterisk is used to denote italics. (Or, from my previous experience in other applications, would expect it to denote boldface.)
IIRC, it also makes a list if you use hyphens.
- A list
- with hyphens
Now, how multiparagraph points work? How sublists work? Have you tried having multiple separate numbered lists in one post?
Why the fuck would you want that? It's a forum, not a system for writing publishable documents.
OK, you can argue sublists is something that's almost never used in casual posting. But multiple numbered lists one after another, that's something that pops up from time to time, just like lists with elements out of order or intentionally missing numbers.
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Multiple
Paragraph
Lists
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Are
Already
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Supported
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By
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Markdown
- As
7. Are
- Nested
- Lists
- As
- As
- Well
- As
Having
- Multiple
- Numbered
- Lists
In
- A
- Single
- Post
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@ben_lubar "already".
Anyway. Good to know it works now.
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Random thought: Markdown is like C++ exceptions - a solution to an already solved problem, that work well except for early implementations that were horrible and made everyone avoid them for the rest of their lives.
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@dkf said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@raceprouk said in What markup format do you prefer?:
A lot of them have specific meanings instead of just being bold or italic or whatever.
Particularly when talking about mathematics, where all of these have different meanings: 𝐢, 𝑖, 𝒾, 𝓲, 𝔦, 𝖎, 𝕚, 𝗂, 𝗶, 𝘪, 𝙞, and 𝚒.
…
Hmm, there's more than I thought.
Oh dear, if this trend continues I think eventually all I'll be able to see are boxes and punctuation marks!
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@kt_ said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@bb36e said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@kt_ alternatively, we fix this in hardware and everyone brings back hardware keyboards on phones
That's a cool idea, especially this year, 10 years after the first touchscreen-only phone: let's invalidate all we learned throughout the past decade.
Hey, having come to that, let's move back to Nokias! :D
I wouldn't mind an indestructible phone again...
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@gąska said in What markup format do you prefer?:
C++ exceptions - a solution to an already solved problem
There was no solution to an error occurring in a class constructor. Exceptions make RAII possible.
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@tsaukpaetra said in What markup format do you prefer?:
Oh dear, if this trend continues I think eventually all I'll be able to see are boxes and punctuation marks!
▍ ▛▀▜ ▍ ▙▃ ▙▃▟ ▙▃
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@blakeyrat said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@zecc said in What markup format do you prefer?:
▛▀▜
I recognized that!
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@tsaukpaetra said in What markup format do you prefer?:
if this trend continues
Get yourself a better font renderer…
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@dkf said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@tsaukpaetra said in What markup format do you prefer?:
if this trend continues
Get yourself a better font renderer…
The renderer is fine, the font itself, however...
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@lb_ said in What markup format do you prefer?:
There was no solution to an error occurring in a class constructor.
Sure there is: don't write bad code.
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@lb_ said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@gąska said in What markup format do you prefer?:
C++ exceptions - a solution to an already solved problem
There was no solution to an error occurring in a class constructor.
There was - so-called zombie objects. Less elegant and more error-prone, but without the performance penalty (it mattered a lot in the 90s-early 00s in high performance apps, e.g. video games)
Exceptions make RAII possible.
RAII is possible without exceptions. They just make it easier. Though nowadays, it's less of a case, since you routinely run destructors on non-constructed objects anyway, thanks to move semantics.
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@raceprouk said in What markup format do you prefer?:
And with Markdown, that's a lot of edge cases.
Almost like a closed fractal. Finite Area, infinite perimeter.
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@gąska said in What markup format do you prefer?:
without the performance penalty
Exception handling code is much better than it used to be, and compilers do a lot better job of working with it.
Still can't use RAII at work. We really haven't got the room. (We just halt the executable if an allocation fails. Cheaper and easier to debug.)
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@gąska true, but zombie objects and RAII are mutually exclusive.
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@lb_ RAII means freeing resources when object goes out of scope. You can't do this without non-trivial destructors, but you absolutely can do this without exceptions.
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@dkf said in What markup format do you prefer?:
Still can't use RAII at work. We really haven't got the room
This sound more like a problem [remember, I am "outside lookin in" with no direct knowledge of your situation] with the object model than with RAII. Having to separate initialization from allocation has well documented consequences.
@gaska -RAII doe include freeing of resources, but that is not what it "means"....
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@thecpuwizard said in What markup format do you prefer?:
Having to separate initialization from allocation has well documented consequences.
E.g. less syscalls.
@thecpuwizard said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@gaska -RAII doe include freeing of resources, but that is not what it "means"....
Then what does it mean if not acquiring resources in constructor and freeing in destructor?
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@gąska said in What markup format do you prefer?:
Then what does it mean if not acquiring resources in constructor and freeing in destructor?
I had "semantics strict" set to on.
As phrased, if one did free resources in the destructor, but allocated in places other than the constructor, then RAII would not apply. That is what I differentiated between "means" (there is a reciprocal equivalent relationship) and "included"..... Make sense?
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@gąska said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@lb_ RAII means freeing resources when object goes out of scope. You can't do this without non-trivial destructors, but you absolutely can do this without exceptions.
RAII stands for Resource Acquisition Is Initialization. It means what it says: the acts of initializing things and acquiring resources are one and the same. When the constructor is finished running, you have a acquired that resource, period. If an error occurs during the constructor, the constructor must not complete or you have initialized something without acquiring a resource, which isn't RAII.
Destructors and scoped memory management are happy side-effects of RAII.
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@lb_ then I don't give a fuck about RAII as long as my resources are acquired during construction and freed during destruction.
When an idea gets in the way of getting the work done, I abandon the idea while keeping the part that's still useful.
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@gąska said in What markup format do you prefer?:
I don't give a fuck about RAII as long as my resources are acquired during construction
That's what I just said RAII is...
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@lb_ there's a subtle difference between "all resources are acquired in constructors" and "all constructors acquire resources".
Ideally, no partially initialized object should be possible to exist outside constructor or destructor. But in a world where you can't use exceptions (and such a world existed long time ago), a RAII-like class that sometimes spits uninitialized objects and you have to check for it is 99% as good as RAII in most use cases.
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@thecpuwizard said in What markup format do you prefer?:
This sound more like a problem [remember, I am "outside lookin in" with no direct knowledge of your situation] with the object model than with RAII.
No, it's because we've only got 32kB of RAM to fit the code into (we've a lot more room for data) and we've got quite a lot of application code to squeeze in. It's not that exceptions are particularly bulky, so much that we're particularly short of space. Given our restrictions, making everything
nothrowmakes a lot of sense (and we can still guarantee that we won't get zombie objects). Right now, most of our code (i.e., over 99%) is C, but switching it to C++ would let us greatly simplify a lot as we'd be able to use templates and classes rather than a lot of horrible hacks. But exceptions are still Right Out (and that's actually pretty usual when dealing with embedded ARM processors).
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@gąska said in What markup format do you prefer?:
But in a world where you can't use exceptions
What about returning tuples? It's functionally equivalent to an exception, but it doesn't require specific language support for returning 2-tuples where you can only access one of the elements. What if an operation fails but there is a partial result available?
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@ben_lubar said in What markup format do you prefer?:
What about returning tuples? It's functionally equivalent to an exception
Constructors cannot return values, and when the constructor throws, the destructor doesn't run.
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@ben_lubar said in What markup format do you prefer?:
It's functionally equivalent to an exception
No. Tuples require the participation of the code between error generation and error handling to be active participants in the error routing, whereas exceptions do not. (A compiler might implement exceptions as tuple returning, but that wouldn't be visible to the programmer.)
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@dkf said in What markup format do you prefer?:
No, it's because we've only got 32kB of RAM to fit the code into ...
Thanks for the clarification... I have been there, a big part of the reason I said "sounds like" (a probabilistic view, educated guess at cause) rather than "that is" (some attempt at an absolute statement.)
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@ben_lubar said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@gąska said in What markup format do you prefer?:
But in a world where you can't use exceptions
What about returning tuples? It's functionally equivalent to an exception, but it doesn't require specific language support for returning 2-tuples where you can only access one of the elements.
Hence why I love Rust.
struct T { // fields } impl T { fn new() -> Result<T, Error> { acquire_resources()?; Ok(T { //fields }) } }Pretty much exactly what you're describing.
Errorhere being your own custom error type, probably an enum.
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@pie_flavor you're not missing a semicolon.
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@gąska said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@pie_flavor you're missing a semicolon.
a falsehood
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@pie_flavor said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@gąska said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@pie_flavor you're not missing a semicolon.
a falsehood
What do you mean?
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@gąska said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@pie_flavor said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@gąska said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@pie_flavor you're not missing a semicolon.
a falsehood
What do you mean?
There's no missing semicolon!
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@pie_flavor said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@gąska said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@pie_flavor said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@gąska said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@pie_flavor you're not missing a semicolon.
a falsehood
What do you mean?
There's no missing semicolon!
Just as I said!
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@gąska said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@pie_flavor said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@gąska said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@pie_flavor said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@gąska said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@pie_flavor you're not missing a semicolon.
a falsehood
What do you mean?
There's no missing semicolon!
Just as I said!
Agreed!
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@antiquarian said in What markup format do you prefer?:
@anonymous234 said in What markup format do you prefer?:
Why not the good ideas thread?
Because normal people hate Lisp syntax, guaranteeing that the idea will never be adopted.
(why? (do (hate (syntax lisp)) (people normal)))
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@kt_ said in What markup format do you prefer?:
That's a cool idea, especially this year, 10 years after the first touchscreen-only phone: let's
invalidate all we learned throughoutlearn from the mistakes of the past decade.FTFY
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@masonwheeler touch screens work as impromptu anything. Not very good at any particular purpose, but offers great flexibility. Physical buttons really are unnecessary.
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@gąska said in What markup format do you prefer?:
Physical buttons really are unnecessary.
Except for turning the device on and off :P
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@raceprouk and arguably a volume button. Two if you're feeling fancy.
