Goodbye
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@masonwheeler said in Goodbye:
@yamikuronue said in Goodbye:
For me, the best part about the garage is I don't have to know who secretly hates people like me and thinks I shouldn't exist.
I think that's part of the "disagree without being disagreeable" thing. I don't think anyone here thinks you shouldn't exist; they believe that certain things you agree with are incorrect, and that many of the more prominent people advocating (and particularly acting upon) those ideas shouldn't exist because they're actively causing harm to people. But there's a huge gulf between that and "everyone who likes these ideas is someone I hate and they shouldn't exist."
Yeah, the problem with the social justice movement and feminism is that the loudest voices in those movements tend to be the most toxic people in the movements. It's sad, because I know there are people in both of those movements that are quite level-headed, and can actually debate people they disagree with.
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@masonwheeler Well, for example, I know some people belong to religions that have opinions about people like me. I don't know and I don't want to know how much they agree with that sort of talk. But it's stuff like that I'm concerned with.
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@masonwheeler said in Goodbye:
I think that's part of the "disagree without being disagreeable" thing. I don't think anyone here thinks you shouldn't exist; they believe that certain things you agree with are incorrect,
Let's say, it would help if some people just said that they thought something was incorrect, rather than pouring scorn and vitriol on said ideas (and more often than not, the persons who said it as well) on almost each and every occasion.
There is a gap between discussing controversial topics, and the kind of flame-fest that we see in a lot of garage threads (and that's not talking about some of the circle-jerk garage threads where a couple of people happily laugh at all those who don't agree with them on one idea). There are some interesting discussions, yes, but you really need to have a very, very thick skin to feel at ease in there...
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@cartman82 said in Goodbye:
These days, everyone is moving into their own corner and taking their toys with them. Things becoming more and more extreme in both camps. It's kind of depressive for sort of a centrist like myself.
There's a few people on this forum who are socially extremely conservative and will make it loudly known whenever topics about sexism come up, usually to the extent of chasing off the people with a more centrist or liberal viewpoint. This has happened both in and out of Garage.
No name-naming of course, but my point is I don't think this forum is as neutral ground as you say.
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@masonwheeler said in Goodbye:
I think that's part of the "disagree without being disagreeable" thing. I don't think anyone here thinks you shouldn't exist; they believe that certain things you agree with are incorrect,
Let's say, it would help if some people just said that they thought something was incorrect, rather than pouring scorn and vitriol on said ideas (and more often than not, the persons who said it as well) on almost each and every occasion.
There is a gap between discussing controversial topics, and the kind of flame-fest that we see in a lot of garage threads (and that's not talking about some of the circle-jerk garage threads where a couple of people happily laugh at all those who don't agree with them on one idea). There are some interesting discussions, yes, but you really need to have a very, very thick skin to feel at ease in there...
You do need to have a thick skin, yes. And not take things personally. Attacking an idea does not mean that they are attacking you, personally.
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@yamikuronue said in Goodbye:
@masonwheeler Well, for example, I know some people belong to religions that have opinions about people like me.
Not sure "what sort of people you're like," but my religion's opinion is that you're a literal daughter of God, made in his image and containing a portion his divine nature, with potential that's eternal and infinite.
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I actually think this is a healthy attitude toward our industry, because our industry is sick. It needs fixing, and the worst thing we can do at this point is let technical debt build up as we continue to gloss over how bad things really are.
I 100% agree with you.
The thing is, I'd be experience the same pain I experience on a daily basis (stuff like struggling with terrible software UI, dealing with people with zero soft-skills who think software development is literally only typing code, dealing with people who don't feel QA is important, etc) whether or not I posted that pain here.
Maybe that's "bringing other people down", but I post about it because it's important to me. The industry I'm in now is not the one I was excited to join in the 90s, it's turned into something that could not be more different. Maybe it's useless, but I'm trying to get the message out anyway.
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Attacking an idea does not mean that they are attacking you, personally.
It took me about 3 minutes browsing the Garage to find someone name-calling SJWs. So.
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@masonwheeler said in Goodbye:
literal daughter of God
eeeh.... about that.....
See, there's the official position, and then there are the people you meet on the street.
I know several "Good Christians" who profess to be a prime example of their religion that if they knew about my religious beliefs would proclaim me to be the spawn of the devil here to temp them away from the true path, and my opinion on religion basically boils down to "look, just use your common sense, yeah? think about things, don't just blindly accept them."
And i'm quite convinced that they would attempt an intervention and possibly an exorcism "for my own good" if they knew my sexual preferences or gender identity.
so the important question is not what your religion's view is, it's what you think for yoruself. and empirical evidence suggests that there can be a VAST gulf between doctrine and practice.
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@yamikuronue said in Goodbye:
Attacking an idea does not mean that they are attacking you, personally.
It took me about 3 minutes browsing the Garage to find someone name-calling SJWs. So.
I don't see anyone in there calling you names. Calling "SJWS" names is not calling you a name, personally. So, no. My previous statement regarding that above still stands.
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@yamikuronue You have to think about that 'W' and why you want to attach it to yourself. If you literally label yourself as something that attacks people (and there is no other reason to have a 'warrior' in existence!), you have to expect that people aren't going to take it well. That's all I'll say on this suject.
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@yamikuronue said in Goodbye:
Attacking an idea does not mean that they are attacking you, personally.
It took me about 3 minutes browsing the Garage to find someone name-calling SJWs. So.
I don't see anyone in there calling you names. Calling "SJWS" names is not calling you a name, personally. So, no. My previous statement regarding that above still stands.
I mean, if someone says "Anyone who calls themselves Slacker online is a moron", does that mean they're not calling you a name specifically? I disagree. The anger is directed at a group you're part of.
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@masonwheeler said in Goodbye:
@yamikuronue said in Goodbye:
For me, the best part about the garage is I don't have to know who secretly hates people like me and thinks I shouldn't exist.
I think that's part of the "disagree without being disagreeable" thing. I don't think anyone here thinks you shouldn't exist; they believe that certain things you agree with are incorrect, and that many of the more prominent people advocating (and particularly acting upon) those ideas shouldn't exist because they're actively causing harm to people. But there's a huge gulf between that and "everyone who likes these ideas is someone I hate and they shouldn't exist."
+ ʉ
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@yamikuronue said in Goodbye:
@yamikuronue said in Goodbye:
Attacking an idea does not mean that they are attacking you, personally.
It took me about 3 minutes browsing the Garage to find someone name-calling SJWs. So.
I don't see anyone in there calling you names. Calling "SJWS" names is not calling you a name, personally. So, no. My previous statement regarding that above still stands.
I mean, if someone says "Anyone who calls themselves Slacker online is a moron", does that mean they're not calling you a name specifically? I disagree. The anger is directed at a group you're part of.
But not you personally. You are still an individual.
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@slackerd I honestly don't feel there's a difference. I've dealt with people who hated LGBTQ individuals before, and as soon as they found out I was one, the hatred was directed toward me personally, in pretty much every case.
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@yamikuronue said in Goodbye:
@slackerd I honestly don't feel there's a difference. I've dealt with people who hated LGBTQ individuals before, and as soon as they found out I was one, the hatred was directed toward me personally, in pretty much every case.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this issue, then.
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@yamikuronue said in Goodbye:
For me, the best part about the garage is I don't have to know who secretly hates people like me and thinks I shouldn't exist. It makes it so much nicer to have conversations with ya'll if I haven't read all kinds of nasty things directed at groups I identify with. And I do honestly enjoy conversations with you all.
Do they think people like you shouldn't exist, or the ideas and ideologies that you support? Because these are two separate things.
I personally think everyone would be so much happier if they reduced the circle of ideologies and ideas they identify with. The more things you are "meh" about, the easier it is for you to get along with others and just concentrate on the things that matter (your life, career, loved ones, goals in life...).
But I guess someone is about to come along and scream how I am either on their group's side or against them, so...
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@cartman82 said in Goodbye:
Do they think people like you shouldn't exist, or the ideas and ideologies that you support? Because these are two separate things.
The latter's fine, the former is what I'm afraid of.
I guess it would help if I got more personal: i'm bisexual, and my mom is an Evangelical. I've had many long, drawn-out fights with her over the years, and I'm just sick of being treated like shit. We don't talk.
I don't want to have to mute someone on the forums over something like that.
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@accalia and @Magus have just pointed out the problem, which is labels.
There are Christians and then there are "Christians".
There are SJWs and then there are SJWs.
It's a problem that's just inherent to language. I don't think discussion can be coherent if everyone stops every time to clarify exactly which subgroup they mean. If you apply a label to yourself, you have to understand the label when used by other people may not be the same label. If someone's generalizing about SJWs being lunatics, you have to ask yourself "Am I the same kind of SJW they're talking about?" If you're not a lunatic, the answer is probably no. Same thing if someone's generalizing about Christians being intolerant. If you're not intolerant, you're not who they're talking about.
If you don't want to engage because you don't want to expend that mental effort or you genuinely think they are over-generalizing and arguing in bad faith, that's totally fair, but I tend to try to assume good faith just because that causes me less stress.
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@heterodox said in Goodbye:
If you're not a lunatic, the answer is probably no.
I dunno. It seems like, from forum threads I've peeked at, that many beliefs I have are considered "lunatic" by prominent forum-goers. When they talk about SJWs, they're really talking about me, not just tumblristas.
@heterodox said in Goodbye:
I tend to try to assume good faith just because that causes me less stress.
Me too. The shit in the Garage is beyond my capacity to assume good faith.
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@blakeyrat said in Goodbye:
These days, everyone is moving into their own corner and taking their toys with them. Things becoming more and more extreme in both camps. It's kind of depressive for sort of a centrist like myself.
There's a few people on this forum who are socially extremely conservative and will make it loudly known whenever topics about sexism come up, usually to the extent of chasing off the people with a more centrist or liberal viewpoint. This has happened both in and out of Garage.
No name-naming of course, but my point is I don't think this forum is as neutral ground as you say.I am being kind of a hypocrite here, since I rarely participate in political debates.
But even if local liberals avoid the garage entirely (or create a liberal garage for themselves), I think just hanging out in the common threads with conservatives and avoiding politics can be beneficial for both sides. Once the current wave of extremization passes, we can hopefully start mending fences from there.
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@cartman82 said in Goodbye:
Once the current wave of extremization passes, we can hopefully start mending fences from there.
it is my fervent hope that this does pass quickly, and that we still have enough pieces of the fence, let alone our homes, to mend.
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@yamikuronue said in Goodbye:
I guess it would help if I got more personal: i'm bisexual, and my mom is an Evangelical. I've had many long, drawn-out fights with her over the years, and I'm just sick of being treated like shit. We don't talk.
I don't want to have to mute someone on the forums over something like that.Hmm.. My feeling is that even the local uber-conservatives are kind of on the social-liberal side and wouldn't be overtly anti-gay.
But as I said, I am kind of sticking to general threads, so maybe I am naive.
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@yamikuronue said in Goodbye:
I mean, if someone says "Anyone who calls themselves Slacker online is a moron", does that mean they're not calling you a name specifically? I disagree. The anger is directed at a group you're part of.
But what are even SJW-s? Is that even a "group"? With like membership and well defined rules?
It's similar dynamics as with the gamergate thing a while back. One group paints the other with a broad brush based on its most extreme elements, and the more moderate "members" are caught in the cross-fire.
I don't know what's the solution for that, other than just not joining ideology-based groups in the first place.
I guess, whenever you hear someone say "SJW", you just imagine them saying "The Bad SJW-s (excluding Jamiqurione or anyone we know personally)", and you're good. :)
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@masonwheeler said in Goodbye:
Are you anarchist
I'm an archist. Where does that fit? :P
You got something against arches?
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You're free to do whatever you want, as long as you don't infringe upon my life, liberty or property, or those of my friends and family. That's my position - pretty straightforward, if you ask me.
Re: people's hopes that the current troubles come to a peaceful end, I'm not so optimistic, unfortunately. It certainly isn't a choice on my part; I'd much rather that everyone stirring shit up take a chill pill and grow a brain, and also that me and mine don't get harmed in some way by all of this.
I'm willing to discuss further elsewhere (perhaps in the Garage).
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@cartman82 said in Goodbye:
My feeling is that even the local uber-conservatives are kind of on the social-liberal side and wouldn't be overtly anti-gay.
I think that a lot of people also do not separate out what they think is the right / proper way for them to live vs how they judge other people vs what they think should be enforced by laws.
It's difficult to avoid taking things personally and different people will handle that in vastly different ways, often turning a stimulating conversation into a flame war.
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@boomzilla said in Goodbye:
It's difficult to avoid taking things personally and different people will handle that in vastly different ways, often turning a stimulating conversation into a flame war.
I also know people who are incapable of having an intellectual discussion about certain topics without becoming emotionally invested and frustrated.
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@cartman82 said in Goodbye:
I guess, whenever you hear someone say "SJW", you just imagine them saying "The Bad SJW-s (excluding Jamiqurione or anyone we know personally)", and you're good
That's mostly what I do outside the garage. Again, the whole point is I don't want to know what people consider to be SJWs because odds are it'll include me. And then I'll know they're talking about me when they ridicule people, and it'll hurt. Plausible deniability keeps things comfortable and easy.
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@cartman82 said in Goodbye:
Jamiqurione
I doubt this was your intention but now I don't think I'll ever be able to stop mentally pronouncing @Yamikuronue 's username as "Jamiroquai"
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I doubt this was your intention but now I don't think I'll ever be able to stop mentally pronouncing @Yamikuronue 's username as "Jamiroquai"
I am not even gonna correct it.
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@cartman82 said in Goodbye:
Jamiqurione
I doubt this was your intention but now I don't think I'll ever be able to stop mentally pronouncing @Yamikuronue 's username as "Jamiroquai"
Her avatar picture wears the wrong kind of hat, though.
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- Losing sleep arguing with someone who's more interested in trolling than having an actual conversation. It would be nice to have serious conversations with people who have different political views from time to time, but I've come to realize that this is nearly impossible on this forum. Every time an interesting conversation develops (yes, they exist, even in the garage) someone destroys it after less than 12 hours.
Okay, this is a legit reason.
- Reading stories about how much people hate their jobs and this industry. It's important to vent and a lot of these stories are funny. However, I've noticed that I have slowly started to hate my profession. Not my job in particular, but this industry in general. This is not exactly a healthy attitude towards the profession you'll probably have for the rest of your life.
There's going to be a natural negative bias due to the theme of the site. But the reality is, things aren't all bad! I've been in my current role for over six years and the biggest complaints I can muster are over minor annoyances that can largely be worked around. I have a great deal of independence to fix things I see as wrong. And generally, where there are problems, the entire company is usually in agreement about how to handle them.
If you do hate your job or profession, I'd look for a better position first before falling into despair.
- Getting trolled by professionals. It can be fun from time to time, but it has made me become an asshole to the people around me IRL, since I've started to accept this as a normal form of human interaction. And I don't want this development to continue.
Every group has its own dynamics. As someone who hangs out with several different groups of people with varying interests and demographics, it can be a bit of a challenge keeping everything straight. But I would generally put IRL relationships ahead of those made online.
For these reasons, I'll delete my password from the database now.
You have backend access?
I will not be reading the replies to this post.
Bullshit.
But in all seriousness, you've got to do what's best for you.
A couple years ago, I was supporting a brand-new application in the field during a typical southwestern US summer. That consisted of getting up before dawn, heading to the site, working 11 hour days in the sweltering heat, and then coming back to argue with people here about health care. While I'm somewhat proud of being able to pull that off, it probably wasn't in my best interest to have gone to those lengths.
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Reading stories about how much people hate their jobs and this industry. It's important to vent and a lot of these stories are funny. However, I've noticed that I have slowly started to hate my profession. Not my job in particular, but this industry in general. This is not exactly a healthy attitude towards the profession you'll probably have for the rest of your life.
I actually think this is a healthy attitude toward our industry, because our industry is sick. It needs fixing, and the worst thing we can do at this point is let technical debt build up as we continue to gloss over how bad things really are.
People are under the impression in general that our industry, which appears to be growing rapidly and making lots of money, is healthy. The more they deny reality, the worse it will get.
Can you give an example of a "healthy" industry?
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gr[a|e]y
Græy?
ah.... the good old æsh. Truly a character that was far before its time, cursed to die in obscurity when it should have been celebrated and lauded forever. such wasted opportunity.......
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Can you give an example of a "healthy" industry?
One that isn't getting worse.
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@accalia Like the þorn?
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@perverted_vixen said in Goodbye:
@accalia Like the þorn?
DID SOMEONE SAY PORN?!
WHERE?!
....
do you see what i have to deal with here?
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@yamikuronue said in Goodbye:
The Sekret PM club
Which we're working on moving off this platform. I'm going to re-evaluate some choices once we do, personally.
@yamikuronue said in Goodbye:
The Sekret PM club
Which we're working on moving off this platform. I'm going to re-evaluate some choices once we do, personally.
likewise.
:-)
If y'all move elsewhere, please let me know where.
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@yamikuronue said in Goodbye:
The Sekret PM club
Which we're working on moving off this platform. I'm going to re-evaluate some choices once we do, personally.
@yamikuronue said in Goodbye:
The Sekret PM club
Which we're working on moving off this platform. I'm going to re-evaluate some choices once we do, personally.
likewise.
:-)
If y'all move elsewhere, please let me know where.
i think we can manage that.
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@cartman82 said in Goodbye:
Please don't.
You do realize WTDWTF is like one of the last places I know where the very conservative and the very liberal can cohabitate and grate against each other in a semi-civilized manner.
These days, everyone is moving into their own corner and taking their toys with them. Things becoming more and more extreme in both camps. It's kind of depressing for sort of a centrist like myself.
Even if you mute threads and ignore 90% of what the other side is saying, it's better than contributing to the splintering.What's ironic is that this is essentially the open source movement in action. But note that the splintering and change of focus of contribution is simply a retargeting of effort. I don't post nearly as much here any more, partly due to lack of time but more due to the environment. With the refocusing of what we're doing and migrating things like the Sekrit PM club off this platform, it gives us the choice to re-evaluate how much contribution would be left without the Sekrit PM club (even if I'm actually not technically currently a member, I have a certain amount of overlap)
WTDWTF is a place where the very conservative and very liberate can cohabitate. The problem is that the threshold for cohabitation isn't the same for everyone and the 'semi civilised manner' is not the same for everyone, that's kind of the problem.
I've literally taken breaks of multiple months from this place (even since the Garage existed), because there are a few people here that are over the point where I feel comfortable posting.
The problem though is that if the best solution being proposed is to ignore 90% of threads, that means I have to consciously spend time finding the 10% I actually want, and if I already have to spend time doing that filtering, I might as well not bother.
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@cartman82 said in Goodbye:
Please don't.
You do realize WTDWTF is like one of the last places I know where the very conservative and the very liberal can cohabitate and grate against each other in a semi-civilized manner.
These days, everyone is moving into their own corner and taking their toys with them. Things becoming more and more extreme in both camps. It's kind of depressing for sort of a centrist like myself.
Even if you mute threads and ignore 90% of what the other side is saying, it's better than contributing to the splintering.What's ironic is that this is essentially the open source movement in action. But note that the splintering and change of focus of contribution is simply a retargeting of effort. I don't post nearly as much here any more, partly due to lack of time but more due to the environment. With the refocusing of what we're doing and migrating things like the Sekrit PM club off this platform, it gives us the choice to re-evaluate how much contribution would be left without the Sekrit PM club (even if I'm actually not technically currently a member, I have a certain amount of overlap)
WTDWTF is a place where the very conservative and very liberate can cohabitate. The problem is that the threshold for cohabitation isn't the same for everyone and the 'semi civilised manner' is not the same for everyone, that's kind of the problem.
I've literally taken breaks of multiple months from this place (even since the Garage existed), because there are a few people here that are over the point where I feel comfortable posting.
The problem though is that if the best solution being proposed is to ignore 90% of threads, that means I have to consciously spend time finding the 10% I actually want, and if I already have to spend time doing that filtering, I might as well not bother.
Yes, and unfortunately, one of those people has been visiting the forum lately...
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do you see what i have to deal with here?
You just don't realize your luck
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@timebandit said in Goodbye:
do you see what i have to deal with here?
You just don't realize your luck
Yeah.... I am pretty lucky. <3
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@heterodox said in Goodbye:
@accalia and @Magus have just pointed out the problem, which is labels.
There are Christians and then there are "Christians".
There are SJWs and then there are SJWs.
It's a problem that's just inherent to language. I don't think discussion can be coherent if everyone stops every time to clarify exactly which subgroup they mean. If you apply a label to yourself, you have to understand the label when used by other people may not be the same label. If someone's generalizing about SJWs being lunatics, you have to ask yourself "Am I the same kind of SJW they're talking about?" If you're not a lunatic, the answer is probably no. Same thing if someone's generalizing about Christians being intolerant. If you're not intolerant, you're not who they're talking about.
If you don't want to engage because you don't want to expend that mental effort or you genuinely think they are over-generalizing and arguing in bad faith, that's totally fair, but I tend to try to assume good faith just because that causes me less stress.
@cartman82 said in Goodbye:
@yamikuronue said in Goodbye:
I mean, if someone says "Anyone who calls themselves Slacker online is a moron", does that mean they're not calling you a name specifically? I disagree. The anger is directed at a group you're part of.
But what are even SJW-s? Is that even a "group"? With like membership and well defined rules?
It's similar dynamics as with the gamergate thing a while back. One group paints the other with a broad brush based on its most extreme elements, and the more moderate "members" are caught in the cross-fire.
I don't know what's the solution for that, other than just not joining ideology-based groups in the first place.
I guess, whenever you hear someone say "SJW", you just imagine them saying "The Bad SJW-s (excluding Jamiqurione or anyone we know personally)", and you're good. :)
OTOH, that way of looking at things leads to the same issues as "Oh, but you're not that kind of [Jew,Nigger,...]. You're one of the good ones!". It also has overlap with the Niemöller issue.
I think even attacking groups, unless there's something well-defined and intrinsic about that group worth attacking (let's call it the Nazi exception) is a bad idea. Most groups are too nebulous on the details between members, and there's likely to be too much splash damage. Dealing with ideas, preferably sufficiently nailed down so that everyone agrees on the nature of what is being discussed, is better. Even just using a major political movement/identification like "Conservativism/Conservative" or "Socialism/Socialist" is problematic because of differing understandings and beliefs about what it is/means.
(Perhaps all of this stuff ought to be Jeffed out of the Goodbye post? Or maybe not, since it seems on-topic as to the reason for the goodbye.)
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Considering I had a debate about anarchism in the garage not too long ago that never resorted to name-calling
To be fair, I did say that you guys are pretty shitty anarchists. Too many rules. ;)
Seriously, there can be really sane and respectful conversations on politics here. You just have to approach it the proper way. You should also expect to be responded to in kind.
for dox 
