Bravery Constrained


  • Impossible Mission - B

    @yamikuronue said in Bravery Constrained:

    So yes, the original iphone was as expensive as the shockingly-high priced PS3, and console prices have dropped since then while iphone prices have risen.

    And yet you can actually do useful things with consoles, like playing games that don't suck. 🚎


  • Garbage Person

    @kt_ said in Bravery Constrained:

    Yup, but that was actual shovelware, added by Samsung. I wouldn't have complained if these were Google apps.

    But Samsung is the manufacturer, not the carrier. So it's not shovelware by your definition.


  • Dupa

    @greybeard said in Bravery Constrained:

    @kt_ said in Bravery Constrained:

    Yup, but that was actual shovelware, added by Samsung. I wouldn't have complained if these were Google apps.

    But Samsung is the manufacturer, not the carrier. So it's not shovelware by your definition.

    Congratulations, you've earned the :pendant: 🏆 !


  • Garbage Person

    @kt_ I'm just pointing out the absurdity of your definition. Its use of the word "manufacturer" is not a minor detail.


  • Dupa

    @greybeard said in Bravery Constrained:

    @kt_ I'm just pointing out the absurdity of your definition. Its use of the word "manufacturer" is not a minor detail.

    Of course, because I used the wrong word altogether. Should've used software vendor (inb4 :pendant: Samsung is a software vendor).

    Basically, what shovelware means to me is the stuff that you get on your phone/computer that isn't a part of the OS package. This is the stuff that you get by choosing to by the particular phone/computer in a particular place, not because you decide to buy a device with the particular OS.

    So, stock apps don't come into this definition. Window Media Player, the Gallery app in Android, Notes in iOS.

    This is based on the notion, that the software, the OS, it's a package, a finished package, something you can install (or get preinstalled) and just start playing.

    Apps that are shoved down your throat by someone else in the process, be it the manufacturer or the carrier, that's something you definitely don't need. That's shovelware.

    I'm not too attached to that definition, though. It was important in the context: someone saying that not buying from a carrier ensured you'd get a pure Android experience, without shovelware, me pointing out that that's what happens to you in case of iOS even when you buy from a carrier, @Jaloopa snapping back that stock apps are shovelware.

    If you want to discuss the intricate differences between shovelware and bloatware, or between noob and newbie, feel free! Just leave me out of it. I've got some illnessing to do!


  • Garbage Person

    @kt_ It always amazes me the number of programmers who can't logic.

    So this new, improved, definition hinges on whether the app was created by a "software vendor".

    No, wait, there's another definition that hinges on whether or not the app is "a part of the OS package" and/or is a "stock app". Or it's the stuff that varies depending on where you buy your phone. Still doesn't clearly classify the Samsung stuff as shovelware, as Samsung clearly considers their stuff as part of their OS package and you get it regardless of where you buy your Samsung phone.

    But apparently apps that are shoved down your throat by Samsung are shovelware, whereas apps that are shoved down your throat by Apple or Google by definition aren't.

    So while you may, without stated justification, prefer your definition to @Jaloopa's, I must respectfully disagree.


  • Notification Spam Recipient

    @kt_ said in Bravery Constrained:

    what shovelware means to me is the stuff that you get on your phone/computer that isn't a part of the OS package. This is the stuff that you get by choosing to by the particular phone/computer in a particular place, not because you decide to buy a device with the particular OS.

    So... Candy Crush on Windows 10 isn't shovelware, because you get that indiscriminately of what device Windows 10 is installed on, right?


  • Dupa

    If you want to discuss the intricate differences between shovelware and bloatware, or between noob and newbie, feel free! Just leave me out of it.

    So this new, improved, definition hinges on whether the app was created by a "software vendor".

    No, wait, there's another definition that hinges on whether or not the app is "a part of the OS package" and/or is a "stock app". Or it's the stuff that varies depending on where you buy your phone. Still doesn't clearly classify the Samsung stuff as shovelware, as Samsung clearly considers their stuff as part of their OS package and you get it regardless of where you buy your Samsung phone.

    Are you trying to get a :pendant: :badger:? Or "touched on a head by an evil angel"?

    If you're requiring me to provide a dictionary-perfect definition of shovelware, you ain't gonna get it. Know why? Because I don't care.

    I'm writing this stuff on a shitter, or while waiting for the coffee, or in between jacking off sessions. So do expect half finished thoughts.

    Now your sick pedantic attention focused on where, because "this doesn't classify Samsung". Samsung is the where for buying Android, the same as carrier is a where. Change it to from or beelzebub or potato. I don't care.

    But apparently apps that are shoved down your throat by Samsung are shovelware, whereas apps that are shoved down your throat by Apple or Google by definition aren't.

    Aha. And the rationale stays the same. You want android, you get a t-mobile-Samsung version of android with shit you can't remove.

    Whereas when you want android or iOS and you buy it from Google/Apple, you get what it is originally, how it's being put together by the creator, the canonical package, whatever the fuck your gonna call it.

    (And yeah, I know you're probably going to give me further shit about words canonical and original. But if you decide you won't want to parse that and instead go for nitpicking again, well that's your problem).

    So while you may, without stated justification, prefer your definition to @Jaloopa's, I must respectfully disagree.

    :wtf:❓

    I must respectfully disagree.

    :wtf:❓

    respectfully

    :wtf:❓

    greybeard said in Bravery Constrained:
    @kt_ It always amazes me the number of programmers who can't logic.

    Fuck you too, buddy.



  • @kt_ said in Bravery Constrained:

    the canonical package,

    Ubuntu phone?


  • Dupa

    @tsaukpaetra said in Bravery Constrained:

    @kt_ said in Bravery Constrained:

    what shovelware means to me is the stuff that you get on your phone/computer that isn't a part of the OS package. This is the stuff that you get by choosing to by the particular phone/computer in a particular place, not because you decide to buy a device with the particular OS.

    So... Candy Crush on Windows 10 isn't shovelware, because you get that indiscriminately of what device Windows 10 is installed on, right?

    That's an interesting question. By this definition, it wouldn't be shovelware.

    What's your definition of shovelware?

    There's one that's very simple: "every application you get that you don't want". What makes me unwilling to accept it is that there's a lot of apps that you get with an OS that are useful, although you might not use them/prefer other. And it raises other questions: is notepad shovelware? Is internet explorer shovelware (because by setting aside this whole EU debacle, you need a browser once you install the OS, even if only to download another browser).

    What's your definition?


  • Notification Spam Recipient

    @kt_ said in Bravery Constrained:

    What's your definition of shovelware?
    There's one that's very simple: "every application you get that you don't want". What makes me unwilling to accept it is that there's a lot of apps that you get with an OS that are useful, although you might not use them/prefer other. And it raises other questions: is notepad shovelware? Is internet explorer shovelware (because by setting aside this whole EU debacle, you need a browser once you install the OS, even if only to download another browser).
    What's your definition?

    The main problem with defining something in the software world is that some things have a tendency to warp and evolve.

    If research is to be believed, shovelware (apparently) referred to what amounts to buckets of software "shoved" onto CDs for distribution in magazines or shoved to fill in extra space not used by a given purchased software title, typically taking the form of shareware or trialware and was basically a way to get a publisher's programs out en masse for "free" without requiring convincing the potential user to buy before they try.

    Back then as you may well know Operating Systems seldom came with anything more than the most essential utilities and programs needed to run the OS and anything more had to be purchased and installed (even if said installation was inserting a disk and running a .com file to run the program). Shovelware then at that time would be anything the user inadvertently legitimately obtained by circumstance of it being bundled in with whatever software they installed, which they didn't necessarily intend/desire to install.

    Eventually OS producers would partner with software companies to bundle their software into the OS (for example. TV For Windows in Windows 98) which didn't necessarily contain only core functionality and instead was "Value Added Software". Despite it being called something else, this was still shovelware, though in most cases you could still choose to install the OS without these programs.

    Fast forward to today, where so-called "Clean" installations of an OS by default contain multiple 3rd-party applications, device manufactures can "pre-load" software and bake it into the recovery/reinstall image, and can now even install software without user consent (or sometimes even knowledge). It's all shovelware, shoving buckets of software of what the OS or Manufacturer decided they believe the average user of said OS/device would want to have on that device.

    For a good example of a fairly true clean install of an OS, for example, I point to Windows 10 Enterprise N LTSB. It didn't include anything I wouldn't consider a core Windows service, utility, or program, yet was 100% functional out of the box. Yes, this does include
    Internet Explorer is not shovelware because several parts of the OS to this day still use it for rendering things, though of course controversy over being the only browser has muddied its position.
    Notepad wouldn't be shovelware, because it's a utility that can be used to edit system configuration files (though obviously wouldn't necessarily recommend that for the average user), but in any case it's still a core component of the OS's functionality in that accomplishing certain tasks would be increasingly difficult without it, and it's not software with an agenda.
    Windows Media Player (past 7.0 I think) would be riding the line due to it pushing whatever Online Store Microsoft decided was the Shiz at that point of release and not technically being a core part of the OS (indeed, you can play media files without Windows Media Player installed)
    Microsoft Edge is definitely shovelware, despite being preinstalled on anything not Enterprise or after I think June 2016 of Windows 10, because again it was not deliberately installed by the user, is not a core component of the OS (yes, indeed it is possible to use Internet Explorer instead, or any other browser), and again has an agenda to fulfill of trying to replace Internet Explorer (and all other web browsers, by whining and crying every step of the way while you're trying to disable it).
    Candy Crush, Get Office, Paint 3d, Skype WiFi, etc. are all shovelware, because the user did not choose to install them, are not a system utility, and most definitely have an agenda.
    Apps like Mail, People, Alarms & Clock, etc. are just barely shovelware because the user didn't choose to install them, aren't a system utility or required for basic system interaction, but don't necessarily have an agenda (as much, anyway).

    In the example of a phone, these are the core apps I'd expect to see:
    Phone (i.e. dialer), Contacts, Notepad, Settings, Store, Camera (if it has one), Messaging.
    Anything else was shoveled onto the phone, benign or not, and should be able to be removed at will.

    Honestly, if there wasn't such a huge push for removing user choice, I'd advocate some kind of welcome wizard (that the user could skip at will!) to install their choice of extras, such as email client, a better text messenger, a web browser, etc. The problem with this approach is that the user has to choose, and it takes time to actually download and install all those gigabytes worth of apps. It would also be prone to stereotyping ("Business user? Choose this bundle to get Newsstand, Stocks, and Finance!") and adds to the overhead of initial device setup. Have you noticed the trend of making all wizards place the "Next" button at the bottom right-most button? Just nod your head and accept all the things....

    Anyways, sorry for the ramble. Is that close enough?


  • kills Dumbledore

    @tsaukpaetra said in Bravery Constrained:

    Notepad

    Not all Androids have a note taking app built in IIRC. I have Google Keep as my main one but I can't remember if it was part of the stock image

    Apart from that, nice summary


  • Notification Spam Recipient

    @jaloopa said in Bravery Constrained:

    @tsaukpaetra said in Bravery Constrained:

    Notepad

    Not all Androids have a note taking app built in IIRC. I have Google Keep as my main one but I can't remember if it was part of the stock image

    Well, like I mentioned, that's an example App I'd expect to see. Android failed in that regard, so people like grandma shove stuff into massive texts as drafts :facepalm: .

    Apart from that, nice summary

    Thanks! 😄


  • :belt_onion:

    Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but it seems to me that there's One True Definition (tm) of shovelware: "Software that I don't want that's installed on <my device>". This covers both the cases of pre-installed software and software that gets loaded because I missed the checkbox in some idiot "sponsored" installer.

    It's a subjective definition, but it's an inherently subjective concept. Candy Crush Soda Saga may be shovelware to 99% of Windows 10 users, but if there's 1% of users who go, "Oh, cool, Candy Crush is installed already!", it's not shovelware to that 1% of users no matter how much you tell them that it is. Same with e.g. Get Office, where it seems like a lot more users may appreciate the convenience of one-click installation of the Office subscription tied to their Microsoft account when it used to require finding the disc/downloading the installer again, finding the product key... etc.


  • Java Dev

    @heterodox said in Bravery Constrained:

    Same with e.g. Get Office, where it seems like a lot more users may appreciate the convenience of one-click installation of the Office subscription tied to their Microsoft account when it used to require finding the disc/downloading the installer again, finding the product key... etc.

    If it's already tied to the microsoft account, that should be 2-3 clicks in a reasonably designed store? Dunno if the windows store app does that reasonably, I don't have a microsoft account associated with my PC and I want it staying that way.


  • :belt_onion:

    @jaloopa said in Bravery Constrained:

    I have Google Keep as my main one but I can't remember if it was part of the stock image

    It is now. Wasn't before though.


  • :belt_onion:

    @heterodox said in Bravery Constrained:

    Same with e.g. Get Office, where it seems like a lot more users may appreciate the convenience of one-click installation of the Office subscription tied to their Microsoft account when it used to require finding the disc/downloading the installer again, finding the product key... etc.

    Which is true, right up until Get Office is a horribly coded piece of crap and still gets installed (and doesn't remove itself) regardless of if Office has actually been Get-ed. And reinstalls itself every update...


  • :belt_onion:

    @pleegwat said in Bravery Constrained:

    If it's already tied to the microsoft account, that should be 2-3 clicks in a reasonably designed store? Dunno if the windows store app does that reasonably, I don't have a microsoft account associated with my PC and I want it staying that way.

    Examples. I don't use a Microsoft account either (nor Candy Crush).


  • Notification Spam Recipient

    @sloosecannon said in Bravery Constrained:

    @heterodox said in Bravery Constrained:

    Same with e.g. Get Office, where it seems like a lot more users may appreciate the convenience of one-click installation of the Office subscription tied to their Microsoft account when it used to require finding the disc/downloading the installer again, finding the product key... etc.

    Which is true, right up until Get Office is a horribly coded piece of crap and still gets installed (and doesn't remove itself) regardless of if Office has actually been Get-ed. And reinstalls itself every update...

    If I were naive I would blame it on an Apps inability to detect if other apps were installed. But that would be just stupid, right?