Contempt Culture
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@alexmedia said in Contempt Culture:
@xaade said in Contempt Culture:
Is there another language that lets you throw text files on a server and have a working backend for a website?
ASP.NET still allows you to throw an ASPX on the web without requiring a DLL or anything. Something like this is enough:
<%@ Page Language="C#" %> <% Response.Write("Hello, world."); %>Just like the good ol' days of Classic ASP.
And anyone who does that in production code deserves to have their thumbs removed and replaced with chopsticks.
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@alexmedia said in Contempt Culture:
<%@ Page Language="C#" %> <% Response.Write("Hello, world."); %>This reminds me of a lot of ASP.NET Marvel vs. Capcom sample applications where they talk about how Webforms is slow and viewstate is evil, and then proceed to duplicate much of that functionality with
StateBagor some other nonsense, and the code ends up looking a lot like classic ASP.
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@groaner said in Contempt Culture:
StateBag
ViewBag. And yes, ViewBag is to be avoided as much as possible.
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@anonymous234 said in Contempt Culture:
I know that Python defines a Web Server Gateway Interface (WSGI), which is basically a standard way for a web server to pass HTTP requests to any callable object. It does not specify how the web server is supposed to get that object. Presumably it would be easy to configure one to automatically grab and load files from a standard directory.
However, you probably wouldn't want that, since creating a new virtualenv per project makes a lot more sense to avoid dependency conflicts.
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@raceprouk said in Contempt Culture:
@groaner said in Contempt Culture:
StateBag
ViewBag. And yes, ViewBag is to be avoided as much as possible.
Ah, that's the one. I'll have to remember that if I get pulled into an interview. It amuses me that Microsoft has sort of backpedaled and placed all their Web technologies under the ASP.NET umbrella instead of playing favorites.
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@groaner I think ASP.NET just refers to "using .net on the web". Not sure it ever meant anything more than that.
Although I guess it's weird to call a REST service an "active server page", since it's not a page.
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@arantor Also it doesn't require a running process for each idle application, and that makes PHP hosting very cheap.
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@alexmedia said in Contempt Culture:
@xaade said in Contempt Culture:
Is there another language that lets you throw text files on a server and have a working backend for a website?
ASP.NET still allows you to throw an ASPX on the web without requiring a DLL or anything. Something like this is enough:
<%@ Page Language="C#" %> <% Response.Write("Hello, world."); %>Just like the good ol' days of Classic ASP.
I think some java servers used to let you just drop jsp files in a directory
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@antiquarian said in Contempt Culture:
@groaner said in Contempt Culture:
othered
That's a good reason to stop reading and give the author a participation trophy.
I find that problematic. But then again, he also used "problematic," so I guess you're right after all.
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@wharrgarbl said in Contempt Culture:
@alexmedia said in Contempt Culture:
@xaade said in Contempt Culture:
Is there another language that lets you throw text files on a server and have a working backend for a website?
ASP.NET still allows you to throw an ASPX on the web without requiring a DLL or anything. Something like this is enough:
<%@ Page Language="C#" %> <% Response.Write("Hello, world."); %>Just like the good ol' days of Classic ASP.
I think some java servers used to let you just drop jsp files in a directory
What do you mean used to.
But yeah, you still tend to see JSP pages paired with servlets which aren't just drop in... although, to be fair, JSPs are compiled to servlets by the JSP compiler the first time you access them.
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@wharrgarbl said in Contempt Culture:
@arantor Also it doesn't require a running process for each idle application, and that makes PHP hosting very cheap.
You can run PHP, Go, Java, or Python for free on the app engine: https://cloud.google.com/appengine/docs/standard/
And when given the choice between PHP and Java... I'll have to get back to you on that.
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@anonymous234 said in Contempt Culture:
@kt_ said in Contempt Culture:
So you're saying that PHP is awful and nevertheless a quarter of internet is powered by it?
Next you'll tell me that most internet-connected devices are trivially hackable, that COBOL programs are still being written, that virtually no programmers understand the basics of Unicode or that you can't create a file named "con" in Windows.
For me, that I can write PHP code using
copy conis enough!
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@ben_lubar said in Contempt Culture:
@wharrgarbl said in Contempt Culture:
@arantor Also it doesn't require a running process for each idle application, and that makes PHP hosting very cheap.
You can run PHP, Go, Java, or Python for free on the app engine: https://cloud.google.com/appengine/docs/standard/
And when given the choice between PHP and Java... I'll have to get back to you on that.
And given the choice of PHP, Java and Go… I'll fuck the goat, sir!
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@raceprouk said in Contempt Culture:
@alexmedia said in Contempt Culture:
@xaade said in Contempt Culture:
Is there another language that lets you throw text files on a server and have a working backend for a website?
ASP.NET still allows you to throw an ASPX on the web without requiring a DLL or anything. Something like this is enough:
<%@ Page Language="C#" %> <% Response.Write("Hello, world."); %>Just like the good ol' days of Classic ASP.
And anyone who does that in production code deserves to have their thumbs removed and replaced with chopsticks.
Agreed, this isn't how you should run a production .NET website.
A while ago I had to do a bulk update of about 250 items in production. There was no web service which I could use, so I had to do the update from within the context of the application. At that time I plonked an .aspx into the webroot, called it from my browser, and deleted it when the update was done.
The alternative would've been doing 250 updates by hand, but why would anyone working in IT want to do that?
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@raceprouk said in Contempt Culture:
@alexmedia said in Contempt Culture:
@xaade said in Contempt Culture:
Is there another language that lets you throw text files on a server and have a working backend for a website?
ASP.NET still allows you to throw an ASPX on the web without requiring a DLL or anything. Something like this is enough:
<%@ Page Language="C#" %> <% Response.Write("Hello, world."); %>Just like the good ol' days of Classic ASP.
And anyone who does that in production code deserves to have their thumbs removed and replaced with chopsticks.
Look, I inherited the site and am working on making it sane. Changing from .aspx and .aspx.vb files to proper compiled code would be a major change and the testers barely have time for the changes that have to be made
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@jaloopa said in Contempt Culture:
@raceprouk said in Contempt Culture:
@alexmedia said in Contempt Culture:
@xaade said in Contempt Culture:
Is there another language that lets you throw text files on a server and have a working backend for a website?
ASP.NET still allows you to throw an ASPX on the web without requiring a DLL or anything. Something like this is enough:
<%@ Page Language="C#" %> <% Response.Write("Hello, world."); %>Just like the good ol' days of Classic ASP.
And anyone who does that in production code deserves to have their thumbs removed and replaced with chopsticks.
Look, I inherited the site and am working on making it sane. Changing from .aspx and .aspx.vb files to proper compiled code would be a major change and the testers barely have time for the changes that have to be made
But then that's not you doing it, that's the numpty who came before you.
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@ben_lubar said in Contempt Culture:
@wharrgarbl said in Contempt Culture:
@arantor Also it doesn't require a running process for each idle application, and that makes PHP hosting very cheap.
You can run PHP, Go, Java, or Python for free on the app engine: https://cloud.google.com/appengine/docs/standard/
And when given the choice between PHP and Java... I'll have to get back to you on that.
I wasn't aware of google's free offering, that is good to know, thanks.
Said that, I'm not sure I would take java over php. Java is so annoying.
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Where the article got it right, IME, is authors of pretty much anything (new) web-related completely ignoring
PHPanything non-NodeJS.Go looking for a plugin for Bootstrap for example. I dunno, a fancy dropdown search, a slider component, anything. You'll find loads of them on GitHub or wherever. And install instructions will always, always start with
npmpackage names. Probably abowerpackage as well, if you're lucky.It's been going on for years though, and PHP is not the only environment that gets outright ignored. Ruby is now by the wayside, but it's still kinda respected. .NET... no one gives a fuck I guess, not hip enough, but hey, it's .NET, so it's ok. You're using PHP? Fuck you, port it all to Node!
And I'm not just pulling this out of my ass, btw. Every time I'm asked about our tech stack I get asked why I'm not using Node, either as a replacement for the PHP or C++ portion of it. Because why would you use something that's stable, works, and uses less resources combined than running just a webpage on Node? (this is a legit concern for us BTW, I'm not pulling a "BUT MUH PERFORMANCE!" just to brag here) I also don't use React, Angular, nor LookHowShiny.js. Because raisins.
The hunt for the latest shiny annoys me to no end. I use tools that fit the purpose. If you don't understand my choices of architecture at least acknowledge that instead of going on a rant against it on principle alone. Instead, as the article seems to say as well, if you don't want to provide support for a specific stack say so and just provide us with good enough docs so we can do it ourselves. "Your stack sucks!" is not good docs.
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@onyx said in Contempt Culture:
I also don't use React, Angular, nor LookHowShiny.js.
But do you use Vanilla.js?
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@onyx We use a decades year old unsupported C compiler in our backend, and I think people aren't telling our stack suck enough to make
allow us to change it.
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@raceprouk said in Contempt Culture:
@onyx said in Contempt Culture:
I also don't use React, Angular, nor LookHowShiny.js.
But do you use Vanilla.js?
jQuery, Handlebars, a bunch of smaller utility stuff (moment.js and similar). Our backend is very complex due to the nature of the beast, so all the modelling is done on the backend, once, for both all the shiny stuff and for graceful degradation purposes (we share templates on the backend and frontend). The whole models-on-frontend paradigm doesn't fit our needs well. All it would do is force us to duplicate our efforts in many cases.
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@arantor said in Contempt Culture:
Oh, and let me know when your language of choice powers approximately a quarter of the whole fucking internet.
WordPress alone powers more than 25% and it's built with PHP
https://venturebeat.com/2015/11/08/wordpress-now-powers-25-of-the-web/
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@kt_ said in Contempt Culture:
@ben_lubar said in Contempt Culture:
@wharrgarbl said in Contempt Culture:
@arantor Also it doesn't require a running process for each idle application, and that makes PHP hosting very cheap.
You can run PHP, Go, Java, or Python for free on the app engine: https://cloud.google.com/appengine/docs/standard/
And when given the choice between PHP and Java... I'll have to get back to you on that.
And given the choice of PHP, Java and Go… I'll fuck the goat, sir!
Thought I'd write something serious on this topic, so my own 3p, here I come! (Or something).
To be perfectly honest, I do appreciate the position PHP has and the part it plays in the global scheme of things.
- Starting out to learn coding with PHP is the easiest thing in the world. You have a working website in a sec and you don't need a whole MVC to get started. You don't need to know what it is.
- Hosting PHP is extremely cheap. Seriously, LAMP is the cheapest stack out there. I have a shared hosting account for which I pay like $15 a freacking year! And sure, it's not the most stable or advanced one, but it's good enough.
- PHP has some nice web frameworks it's fun to use. Last thing I tried was Laravel and man is this cool!
- PHP 7 was a great leap for PHP and as @Arantor says, it shows that the language is still supported and that its developers are serious and that the language is becoming more and more serious, too.
- Again, PHP made lots of things so easy! Want to set up a blog? Throw WordPress at it. (Full of holes? Fuck this, I'll keep it updated and my blog isn't popular enough for me to care). Want to set up a website? There's an open source software for that, too! Forum? You're in luck!
Sure, we keep laughing at PHP because it indeed was badly designed from the get-go. But the role it played in the development of the Internet is unparalleled and it was not for no reason.
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@onyx said in Contempt Culture:
Every time I'm asked about our tech stack I get asked why I'm not using Node, either as a replacement for the PHP or C++ portion of it.
Easy answer: Same reason I don't use a spoon to cut my steak.
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@timebandit said in Contempt Culture:
@anonymous234 said in Contempt Culture:
Javascript on the backend, PHP on the frontend!
Is that still being developed? I liked playing around with it about 10 years ago.
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@dragnslcr said in Contempt Culture:
Is that still being developed? I liked playing around with it about 10 years ago.
Not sure, but I hope it's not.
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@timebandit said in Contempt Culture:
WordPress alone powers more than 25% and it's built with PHP
A quarter of domains or a quarter of visitor-minutes?
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@timebandit hasn't been updated beyond PHP 5.5, so maybe not.
I also don't know off hand how much if at all, the extension ABI changed when moving to 7, so it might be an easy port or it might not...
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@pleegwat every time you go to Wikipedia...
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@onyx said in Contempt Culture:
.NET... no one gives a fuck I guess, not hip enough, but hey, it's .NET, so it's ok.
You're better off that all this broken open source pad-left bullshit isn't available in .NET.
Nuget is actually full of somewhat quality code.
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BTW did anybody here actually read the article I posted?
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@blakeyrat said in Contempt Culture:
@onyx said in Contempt Culture:
.NET... no one gives a fuck I guess, not hip enough, but hey, it's .NET, so it's ok.
You're better off that all this broken open source pad-left bullshit isn't available in .NET.
Of course, it also helps that it's in the Framework itself already:
String.PadLeft Method (System)
Returns a new string of a specified length in which the beginning of the current string is padded with spaces or with a specified Unicode character.
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@pleegwat said in Contempt Culture:
A quarter of domains or a quarter of visitor-minutes?
Seem to be a quarter of domains
WordPress is used by 58.7% of all the websites whose content management system we know. This is 25.0% of all websites.
N.B.: article from 2015, probably more than that right now.
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@blakeyrat said in Contempt Culture:
BTW did anybody here actually read the article I posted?
We're supposed to read the article ?
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@blakeyrat said in Contempt Culture:
BTW did anybody here actually read the article I posted?
Yes, it's basically don't be a dick to people using "inferior languages" because you just come off looking like an asshole, followed by the fact that people who use these "inferior languages" might actually know things you don't. And might be working on fixing the "inferiorities". But you have to not be a dick to then to discover this.
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@anotherusername said in Contempt Culture:
He makes some decent enough points. But...
What can we Do?
SHUT. UP.No, really, cut it out. If you need to make fun of a language, do it with your own language, inside your own community. JavaScript is really good at this, because they’re trying to help people write better code within JavaScript.Make fun of all languages equally! Yay! (yes,sure, evenmostly Javascript)
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@blakeyrat I tried, but noped out when I saw the word "othered" and wasn't convinced based on what I had read so far that it really was a typo.
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@blakeyrat said in Contempt Culture:
BTW did anybody here actually read the article I posted?
Yes. I'm still waiting for you to answer my original questions:
Does this mean you're deleting your account?
Or are you making fun of this guy?
What are you trying to say to us?
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@kt_ said in Contempt Culture:
And given the choice of PHP, Java and Go… I'll fuck the goat, sir!
So my choices are "or death".... well I guess I will just have the chicken.
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@timebandit said in Contempt Culture:
@dragnslcr said in Contempt Culture:
Is that still being developed? I liked playing around with it about 10 years ago.
Not sure, but I hope it's not.
Looks like they did a release in 2015, but that's the only one since 2008, so I'm assuming that it's been abandoned.
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@blakeyrat said in Contempt Culture:
BTW did anybody here actually read the article I posted?
I just read it, and I have a couple comments:
- I agree with the sentiment that people who sincerely ask for help should receive quality help. I disagree that suggesting another language or tool-chain or such is not a helpful solution. It definitely can be. But it behooves both to figure out if that is the right thing to do for that particular situation.
- The author is trying to "intersect" minority/women issues with STEM and says in effect that being mean is keeping women/minorities out of STEM fields and that being nice to others will stop all the programmer wars. It's essentially SJW-ism creeping into STEM. For clarity, I think it's good for anyone who is interested in STEM to be able to learn and have opportunities to work in a STEM field, and that bullying has no place anywhere. However, abusing a language is different than abusing the programmer using said language, and people need to understand that difference.
- Social skills and learning about others (languages/toolkits/people/etc.) are
to 
. (Bashing languages for poor design decisions or awkward ways of doing something is fun, and sometimes educational to others. It's also part of the purpose of this site.)
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@djls45 said in Contempt Culture:
abusing a language is different than abusing the programmer using said language
It's amazing how attached people get to things like their chosen language though
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@jaloopa said in Contempt Culture:
@djls45 said in Contempt Culture:
abusing a language is different than abusing the programmer using said language
It's amazing how attached people get to things like their chosen language though
Indeed. So maybe the fix is for those people to learn another language instead of getting bent out of shape because someone didn't like some aspect of their language?
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@djls45 said in Contempt Culture:
So maybe the fix is for those people to learn another language instead of getting bent out of shape because someone didn't like some aspect of their language?
They really should do that anyway, preferably a second language that uses a different paradigm, so that they get exposure to a different way of doing things. For example, someone who only knows C# should try a functional programming language like Haskell, or someone who only knows Python should try a language with static typing. The more adventurous could try a concatenative language like Factor.
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@blakeyrat said in Contempt Culture:
BTW did anybody here actually read the article I posted?
The what?
You're kidding, right?
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@antiquarian said in Contempt Culture:
someone who only knows C# should try a functional programming language like Haskell, or someone who only knows Python should try a language with static typing.
I think someone with C# knowledge would be stretched more by Python's dynamicness than by Haskell - whereas a Python dev might benefit a lot from Haskell.
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I wouldn't think so. C# --> python will mostly work fine as Python works fine when you don't utilize the dynamicness, the reverse not so much.
I am not sure how Haskell would help, it is such a different approach to coding. (though my experience is with LISP,prolog and scheme) I can't recall benefiting much from learning any of those in college. But I took plenty of lessons away from my assembly class that I still use today.
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@dragoon said in Contempt Culture:
I am not sure how Haskell would help, it is such a different approach to coding. (though my experience is with LISP,prolog and scheme) I can't recall benefiting much from learning any of those in college. But I took plenty of lessons away from my assembly class that I still use today.
The main thing is, a Python dev may not know much about typing and similar, which Haskell is great at.
Some Lispy stuff might help a C# dev, but more of that keeps becoming available anyway.
