Microsoft. What the hell.
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Windows 10 does temporarily disable third-party antivirus, admits Microsoft
But Microsoft rebuts claims that it's been using underhand tactics in Windows 10 against third-party antivirus.
One of the key complaints is that Windows 10 uninstalls Kaspersky antivirus without the consent of users and enables the built-in Windows Defender.
Kaspersky argued the switch happens during major Windows updates if a third-party AV product is incompatible with the latest version of Windows.
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@RaceProUK said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
Kaspersky argued the switch happens during major Windows updates if a third-party AV product is incompatible with the latest version of Windows.
I can kind of see MS's point. But then...they're the ones making those incompatibilities in the first place. What sorts of things are they talking about?
Is this better or worse than making Raymond Chen write compatibility shims for AV products and all of the associated problems (e.g., AVs never update to do the Right Thing)?
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@boomzilla said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
if a third-party AV product is incompatible with the latest version of Windows.
They should just let the program crash :)
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@Adynathos said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
@boomzilla said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
if a third-party AV product is incompatible with the latest version of Windows.
They should just let the program crash :)
No, they just put in changes that subtly break the program, I heard a rumor they did this to Chrome.
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@Adynathos What, let bad programs be bad? That's not the Microsoft way!
The Microsoft way is to have a team of people decompile the antivirus program, rewrite the buggy parts, then ship a compatibility shim to every Windows computer that quietly replaces the Kaspersky binaries with the fixed versions at load time.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
@Adynathos said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
@boomzilla said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
if a third-party AV product is incompatible with the latest version of Windows.
They should just let the program crash :)
No, they just put in changes that subtly break the program, I heard a rumor they did this to Chrome.
DOS ain't done 'til Lotus won't run!
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I have actually used Kaspersky AV recently with Windows 10 and this is one of the few problems that I haven't had. This just adds more proof to my belief that Windows generates a series of random numbers at installation and the behavior of Windows is determined by those random numbers.
How else can you explain doing multiple clean installs of Windows, on the same computer, but getting different results? This has been going on since at least Windows 98, but Windows 10 is definitely the all time worst in this regard.
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@El_Heffe said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
How else can you explain doing multiple clean installs of Windows, on the same computer, but getting different results?
Easy: Microsoft
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@El_Heffe said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
This just adds more proof to my belief that Windows generates a series of random numbers at installation and the behavior of Windows is determined by those random numbers.
I wouldn't go that far, but it's certainly believable no two installs will be exactly alike.
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All these large companies are getting bold with their little fiefdom monopolies. They are due for a smack down
This is unlikely to come as long as they keep paying political bribes in the only country that can turn the screws.
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IFF they disable the AV only if it's incompatible then I don't see the WTF. Or better, the WTF is that an AV company didn't get their product ready for the next update.
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@El_Heffe said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
How else can you explain doing multiple clean installs of Windows, on the same computer, but getting different results?
Easy. Fucking Product Managers. "Hey, we need you to A/B test this so we know the best option. Program all 10 different options and randomly assign who gets which test." "What do you mean it will take 100x as long to deliver??? We need it shipped TOMORROW!"
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@boomzilla said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
@Tsaukpaetra said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
@Adynathos said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
@boomzilla said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
if a third-party AV product is incompatible with the latest version of Windows.
They should just let the program crash :)
No, they just put in changes that subtly break the program, I heard a rumor they did this to Chrome.
DOS ain't done 'til Lotus won't run!
To be fair, if the program doesn't run after being loaded into memory by DOS, at that point it's the program's fault for not running.
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@cartman82 said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
This is unlikely to come as long as they keep paying political bribes in the only country that can turn the screws.
There are two places that can really turn the screws. Both the US and EU have the economic clout to make their decisions stick, but they apply different rules and have different concerns.
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Based on the article it looks like Windows does not uninstall it without the user's consent, but does temporarily disable it while it is installing major OS updates -- which frankly doesn't surprise me (disabling a third-party antivirus while Windows is modifying system files seems like a good way to avoid having a third-party antivirus detect some rogue process trying to modify system files and freak out). If the antivirus is compatible with the system post-update it's re-enabled, otherwise the user is prompted to either upgrade it or enable Windows Defender.
Makes perfect sense to me... I see no problems here.
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
If the antivirus is compatible with the system post-update it's re-enabled
Now...how do they detect this?
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@boomzilla said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
@anotherusername said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
If the antivirus is compatible with the system post-update it's re-enabled
Now...how do they detect this?
Why, a whitelist, of course! :D
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@boomzilla said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
@anotherusername said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
If the antivirus is compatible with the system post-update it's re-enabled
Now...how do they detect this?
Well, according to the blog post...
We did this work in partnership with the AV partner to specify which versions of their software are compatible and where to direct customers after updating.
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@anotherusername Wait… Does that mean Kaspersky is complaining about something they helped Microsoft do?
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@RaceProUK said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
I wouldn't go that far, but it's certainly believable no two installs will be exactly alike.
Doing the same thing and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.
Doing the same thing and getting different results is the definition of Windows.
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@El_Heffe every time I
++i;I get a different value. Am I going insane?That quote is dumb. I know the intentions, but still.
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@LB_ said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
@El_Heffe every time I ++i; I get a different value
Did you just found a better source for random numbers ?
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@RaceProUK I dunno. Reading this, I find them bitching about these...
...and bitching about the fact that they're not allowed to spam the user with scary notifications such as this one when their shitty vendor-bundled trial period expires...
for three days after the expiry of a license for our security solution and the turning off of protection, we are forbidden – through our own notification system – from informing the user that it might be a good idea to extend the license so that protection could get back up and running. Instead of that, we’re obliged to use Microsoft’s own notification system – now called ‘Action Center’ – to which many users pay little attention.
That's the same foot-in-the-door tactic that they were also bitching about MS using by bundling Defender with Windows, right? The only difference is that Defender doesn't cost anything and isn't written by folks who wanted to nag you with scary-looking "Pay us to make sure your computer stays safe!" popups. To which I have to say: Good on MS, and Kaspersky can go fuck themselves.
Oh, and about the certification part...
So, how do security solutions wind up on the list of incompatible programs in the first place? ... developers need to ensure compatibility of their antivirus with the final version (the so-called RTM – Release to Manufacturing) of each new update of Windows. ...
Ideally, independent developers need two months after receiving the RTM to carry out all their fine-tuning before the release of the Windows update to the public. Earlier, Microsoft would give us the RTM version in good time, but of late this has been reduced to a couple of weeks before releasing to the public.
This, the MS blog post flatly denied...
Months before a semi-annual update is delivered to customers, interested parties can get easy access to fully running and deployable versions of the release, stay current with updates as the release progresses and becomes feature complete, and provide timely feedback on issues and bugs.
edit: also, those shitty, horrible rescaled and jpeg'd screenshots came directly from Eugene Kaspersky's rant post, with no changes from me other than cropping the one.
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@anotherusername I was gonna say, there's the Insider Preview track too: why not use that?
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@anotherusername Indeed. Hell, if anything it has gotten way easier to get your hands on preview releases.
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@Rhywden said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
@anotherusername Indeed. Hell, if anything it has gotten way easier to get your hands on preview releases.
Yeah - A new one almost every week! (tho it's been quiet recently, excepting the "one that got away")
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Chances are the 3rd party anti-virus was a pile-of-shitware resource hogging bundle-ware "30 day trial give us your credit card" fuckturd anyways. Good on Microsoft.
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@LB_ said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
@El_Heffe every time I
++i;I get a different value. Am I going insane?++iincrements by one is TR
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@El_Heffe said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
@LB_ said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
@El_Heffe every time I
++i;I get a different value. Am I going insane?++iincrements by one is TRI'm tempted to link to the guy who went on a rant about how it should be
i++. But...y'know...work.
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@boomzilla said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
I'm tempted to link to the guy who went on a rant about how it should be i++. But...y'know...work.
He's wrong.
@El_Heffe said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
++i increments by one is TR
C++ allows you to
fuck with peoplechange that!operator++()andoperator++(int)(for pre- and post-increment)
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@boomzilla said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
@dcon said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
He's wrong.
#That'sTheJoke
Judging from all the code I've seen, I'm still losing...
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@El_Heffe said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
I have actually used Kaspersky AV recently with Windows 10 and this is one of the few problems that I haven't had. This just adds more proof to my belief that Windows generates a series of random numbers at installation and the behavior of Windows is determined by those random numbers.
How else can you explain doing multiple clean installs of Windows, on the same computer, but getting different results? This has been going on since at least Windows 98, but Windows 10 is definitely the all time worst in this regard.
Well, the article say the update process disable the antivirus temporarily during the update, so chances are that it did disable Kaspersky for a while and you didn't notice.
Btw, while Microsoft does not respond yet on why they does it, given it's well known that Kaspersky roots deeply in the system, I won't be surprise to see that Microsoft did that because the antivirus gets into the way of the update so they have to disable it temporarily when the update happens.
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@cheong said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
Btw, while Microsoft does not respond yet on why they does it, given it's well known that Kaspersky roots deeply in the system, I won't be surprise to see that Microsoft did that because the antivirus gets into the way of the update so they have to disable it temporarily when the update happens.
Considering viruses, I mean anti-viruses, screw over normal installs...
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@Lorne-Kates said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
Chances are the 3rd party anti-virus was a pile-of-shitware resource hogging bundle-ware "30 day trial give us your credit card" fuckturd anyways. Good on Microsoft.
3rd party?
I had to reboot my computer today because 15GB of my 16GB were being used by, as far as I can tell, absolutely nothing. Windows Defender used 90% of the CPU and disk time for the first 5-10 minutes after the reboot.
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@ben_lubar said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
@Lorne-Kates said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
Chances are the 3rd party anti-virus was a pile-of-shitware resource hogging bundle-ware "30 day trial give us your credit card" fuckturd anyways. Good on Microsoft.
3rd party?
I had to reboot my computer today because 15GB of my 16GB were being used by, as far as I can tell, absolutely nothing. Windows Defender used 90% of the CPU and disk time for the first 5-10 minutes after the reboot.
Gotta make sure those files that haven't been touched since install are still save to run.
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@anotherusername If you ask me, they should go full maffia and change the warning to something like this:
"Nice computer you have there. It'd be a shame if something were to happen to it."
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@martijntje said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
Nice computer you have there. It'd be a shame if something were to happen to it.
Thoughts?
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@martijntje said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
@anotherusername If you ask me, they should go full maffia and change the warning to something like this:
"Nice computer you have there. It'd be a shame if something were to happen to it."
They're a little bit more subtle than that:
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@dcon said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
@cheong said in Microsoft. What the hell.:
Btw, while Microsoft does not respond yet on why they does it, given it's well known that Kaspersky roots deeply in the system, I won't be surprise to see that Microsoft did that because the antivirus gets into the way of the update so they have to disable it temporarily when the update happens.
Considering viruses, I mean anti-viruses, screw over normal installs...
Btw, one of the advice answer.microsoft.com gives when Windows Update install fails is to try disable any antivirus running on that computer first.
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@boomzilla "...for now."
