I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?
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A friend and I are trying to figure out the feasibility of a product in the digital audio space-- we have a well-defined concept, a few sketches we've made ourselves, but neither of us have experience with actually creating electronics products.
To make things difficult, most people who do have experience creating electronics products don't have experience with things like decoding S/PDIF, digital to analog conversion, etc. (Stuff more complicated than wiring up a guitar pedal effect, or an analog amp.)
This is a product that we're sure has decent demand but (as of right now) does not currently exist.
Do any of you have experience in this area and would be willing to talk to us about it?
Feel free to send a private message if you prefer to answer that way, or hit me up on an alternative communication channel.
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TIL Americans don't differentiate between guys dealing with >20MV and those dealing with <20mV.
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@blakeyrat said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
experience with actually creating electronics products
To be fair, we didn't exactly create audio devices too much in college, but I could help check the groundwork and concept.
My problem is that I've never had to actually apply knowledge out of the lab yet. Could be exciting to have a real-world example.
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@blakeyrat I know a few people that I think are qualified for that, I can forward your post to them if you want so
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@wharrgarbl I'd appreciate it.
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I hope you solve one of my infuriating "WHY DOES THIS PRODUCT NOT EXIST" audio issues.
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@blakeyrat I showed this thread to him, exchanged a few words, but he didn't show much interest in doing it.
Did you find someone yet? I can try other people if nobody appeared yet.
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@wharrgarbl No, we've made zero progress, but I'm starting a new job this week and I'm certainly not going to have the drive or mental energy to follow-up on this project anyway.
Just complain to your buddies that their freakin' industry is INPENETRABLE. A complete moron can hire a dude to write an iPhone app in like 20 minutes, but if you want an electronics guy to look over a design there's nothing, nothing, nothing unless you happen to personally know one.
And audio electronics has a hell of a lot of "why does this not exist!?" problems, as well as, "I found all the parts to make this at $2.50 each, why does the product cost $4,500?" issues.
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@blakeyrat said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
"I found all the parts to make this at $2.50 each, why does the product cost $4,500?" issues.
It costs $4,500 because people are willing to pay $4,500. Strangely enough, they probably wouldn't want to buy the same thing for $450.
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The thing is, the price of 7.1 decoders has gone down so that every household has at least 3-4 audio devices capable of putting out 7.1, and you can buy a pair of headphones capable of consuming it for $75 or less.
So why is a simple mixer of 7.1 audio still in the multiple thousands of dollars? As if only a TV station or movie studio would use such a thing? Stereo mixers are a dime a dozen. 7.1 is as cheap now as stereo was in like 1985.
I know for a fact that TI makes a chip that decodes S/PDIF for less than $2.50 unit costs, and another DAC chip that converts the digital signal to analog for a similar price. And yet still 7.1 mixers don't exist at reasonable prices. Why?
You're saying "only pros only pros only pros wave my hands in the hair!" and I'm saying there's a huge and profitable market here that's extremely underserved. The question is: why does the audio electronics industry not see it and pull their heads out of their asses?
(The product I'm looking to create isn't a simple 7.1 mixer, but the fact that you can't just walk into a store and buy a simple 7.1 mixer kind of inspired it.)
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@blakeyrat Go to a local prototyping/design company. Have them sign an NDA. They'll do the entire design if you want. Or just follow your lead.
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@blakeyrat said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
I know for a fact that TI makes a chip that decodes S/PDIF for less than $2.50 unit costs, and another DAC chip that converts the digital signal to analog for a similar price. And yet still 7.1 mixers don't exist at reasonable prices. Why?
'Cos nobody's gone in and shown that you can sell those things to ordinary people and make a mountain of money doing so. You may well have found a genuine gap in the market for a product that does something that ordinary people could be persuaded to want yet which is currently only provided to professionals (and hence with a pricing and promotional structure that matches that).
I've not got the temperament for such things, but I applaud people who take action on these things and hope for their success.
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@Captain said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
Go to a local prototyping/design company.
The point of this thread is we can't find one. "Why just go to the mystical unicorn sales floor and buy all the mystical unicorns you want! What do you mean you don't have a mystical unicorn sales floor in your city?!"
Goddamned.
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@blakeyrat said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
I know for a fact that TI makes a chip that decodes S/PDIF for less than $2.50 unit costs, and another DAC chip that converts the digital signal to analog for a similar price. And yet still 7.1 mixers don't exist at reasonable prices. Why?
At a guess -- licensing fees? Essentially, I can connect my soundcard to the speakers (more precisely -- the thing that drives the speakers) via S/PDIF. The former supports 5.1 and 7.1 output via DTS Connect (or something) and the latter accepts 5.1/7.1 inputs but via Dolby Digital Live. This means no 5.1 or 7.1 sound for me, because those two standards apparently aren't compatible.
The reason there's no option for Dolby Digital Live output from the sound card (ASUS mobo built-in) is apparently because ASUS doesn't want to pay the licensing fees for that. I suspect that there's a similar story on the speaker side of the things.
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@cvi Ok possibly? But stuff like this is exactly why I want an expert to look at what we've come up with and tell us it's stupid in like 10 seconds.
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@blakeyrat I just found 2 on the google. In about 12 seconds.
There's a big one in Portland if you don't like your options in Washington.
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@Captain Did you feel like sharing with the class or just bragging?
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@Yamikuronue Doesn't matter now anyway because:
@blakeyrat said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
No, we've made zero progress, but I'm starting a new job this week and I'm certainly not going to have the drive or mental energy to follow-up on this project anyway.
If he really wants to help, he can talk to Tsaukpaetra and get put into contact with my buddy.
I'm going to fucking work.
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And ignoring that kind of stuff, these same inexplicable product gaps exist ALL THE FUCK OVER purely analog audio.
Wanna know how difficult it is to stand up a YouTube channel that features more than one person, live action, away from a static sit down desk with audio good enough to tell what people are saying?
Not hard. If you have the budget to do the same thing for fucking television. And most TV productions RENT the gear it's so god damned expensive.
If you don't have that kind of budget, you're pretty fuckered and have to crowbar inappropriate gear into doing it.
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MFG.com is a good place to look. Thomasnet.com is another option.
A lot of the more traditional manufacturing companies don't have a real google presence. But the newer "prototyping" companies do. So Googling for "full service prototyping <your state>" works well. A lot of them do the full stack, from design to full-scale manufacture (or at least, tooling).
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@blakeyrat said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
But stuff like this is exactly why I want an expert to look at what we've come up with and tell us it's stupid in like 10 seconds.
For sure. Might need an EE with an audio background for those questions, though. Especially if it comes down to various proprietary standards.
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If you don't mind international hit up bigclive on www.blue-room.org.uk.
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@Ben_Warre That's the guy whose videos @Polygeekery has been posting, yes?
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@Zecc said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
@Ben_Warre That's the guy whose videos @Polygeekery has been posting, yes?
Probably. In Clive's defense, not all of his videos are about Fanny Flambeaux and pills that make your shit glittery. Sometimes he does videos on real electrical conundrums that need answers:
Should I stick this electrode up my butt? – 21:55
— bigclivedotcomThe Rinky Pink Pounder. Hitachi Magic Wand clone teardown. – 22:14
— bigclivedotcom
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@blakeyrat lol at what @blakeyrat calls entrepreneurship!
Just hit up mfg.com and sign up. Or make some calls. If business was easy, everybody would be rich.
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@Captain he basically wants it all spoonfed to him.
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@Captain said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
If business was easy, everybody would be rich.
Starting a business should be easy. Success is another thing. Further, even success in a business does not guarantee riches. There are tens of thousands of successful small business owners very few, if any, are rich.
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@blakeyrat said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
The thing is, the price of 7.1 decoders has gone down so that every household has at least 3-4 audio devices capable of putting out 7.1, and you can buy a pair of headphones capable of consuming it for $75 or less.
So why is a simple mixer of 7.1 audio still in the multiple thousands of dollars? As if only a TV station or movie studio would use such a thing? Stereo mixers are a dime a dozen. 7.1 is as cheap now as stereo was in like 1985.
I know for a fact that TI makes a chip that decodes S/PDIF for less than $2.50 unit costs, and another DAC chip that converts the digital signal to analog for a similar price. And yet still 7.1 mixers don't exist at reasonable prices. Why?
You're saying "only pros only pros only pros wave my hands in the hair!" and I'm saying there's a huge and profitable market here that's extremely underserved. The question is: why does the audio electronics industry not see it and pull their heads out of their asses?
(The product I'm looking to create isn't a simple 7.1 mixer, but the fact that you can't just walk into a store and buy a simple 7.1 mixer kind of inspired it.)
Why would anyone at home need to mix 7.1 channel audio? That seems like a pretty niche thing, and niche things come with niche prices as you are on the wrong side of the economies of scale.
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@Zecc said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
@Ben_Warre That's the guy whose videos @Polygeekery has been posting, yes?
It would appear so. Others on the forum may be able to help
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@blakeyrat said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
And audio electronics has a hell of a lot of "why does this not exist!?" problems, as well as, "I found all the parts to make this at $2.50 each, why does the product cost $4,500?" issues.
The BOM is only a tiny part of the equation.
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@Captain said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
lol at what @blakeyrat calls entrepreneurship!
I don't want to start a business, I want to buy a product that doesn't exist.
EDIT: have I ever stated a desire to start a business? Where the hell are you getting that from?
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@Polygeekery said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
Why would anyone at home need to mix 7.1 channel audio?
Because they have a cable box, a PS4 and an Xbox One all sitting within 5 feet of each other and don't want to have to replug their 7.1 headsets (or receiver) every time they switch devices. That's not niche at all. That describes millions of households.
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@blakeyrat said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
Where the hell are you getting that from?
same place we always do. Shoulder aliens.
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@blakeyrat said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
@Polygeekery said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
Why would anyone at home need to mix 7.1 channel audio?
Because they have a cable box, a PS4 and an Xbox One all sitting within 5 feet of each other and don't want to have to replug their 7.1 headsets (or receiver) every time they switch devices. That's not niche at all. That describes millions of households.
That is not a mixer. That is a source selector. Or, if you have a receiver you probably do it with that.
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@blakeyrat said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
@Polygeekery said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
Why would anyone at home need to mix 7.1 channel audio?
Because they have a cable box, a PS4 and an Xbox One all sitting within 5 feet of each other and don't want to have to replug their 7.1 headsets (or receiver) every time they switch devices. That's not niche at all. That describes millions of households.
Also, millions of households do not have 7.1 channel headphones. I have never even seen a set outside of the clamshell packaging they are in at Fry's. No one I know has them.
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@Polygeekery Well by all means, keep telling me how wrong stupid and horrible I am. So glad you're here, otherwise, how would I know to feel bad?
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@blakeyrat said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
EDIT: have I ever stated a desire to start a business? Where the hell are you getting that from?
We "got it" from the simultaneous:
- claim that you found a gap in the market
- caginess about telling us what that gap is
- search for prototyping shops
Also, you called it a "product".
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@blakeyrat said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
Well by all means, keep telling me how wrong stupid and horrible I am.
Your shoulder aliens are telling you that. I said nothing of the sort. You should get rid of the shoulder aliens.
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@Polygeekery said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
@blakeyrat said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
@Polygeekery said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
Why would anyone at home need to mix 7.1 channel audio?
Because they have a cable box, a PS4 and an Xbox One all sitting within 5 feet of each other and don't want to have to replug their 7.1 headsets (or receiver) every time they switch devices. That's not niche at all. That describes millions of households.
Also, millions of households do not have 7.1 channel headphones. I have never even seen a set outside of the clamshell packaging they are in at Fry's. No one I know has them.
o/
i have two pair. the discrete driver ones are pretty swank, but they suffer like hell when you turn the volume up beyone "whisper" the lack of big drivers hurts the Bass response like crazy and having so many voice coils so close together generates a lot of cross talk between channels at high volumes.
the "Virtual" 7.1 sets use a single, much larger driver and use psycho acoustics to simulate the 3d sound are markedly better but so far require a USB plug as they contain their own specialized DAC, and need to be calibrated to the listener or the 3d replication will be off. They have the advantage though of doing better at higher volumes without distortion thanks to the eliminated cross talk between voice coils as well as the bigger driver producing much more vibrant bass. they're also lighter which for a head mounted piece of equipment can only be good.
if you're looking for a pair, get the virtual ones. which is good because they're cheaper too..
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@Captain said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
@blakeyrat said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
EDIT: have I ever stated a desire to start a business? Where the hell are you getting that from?
We "got it" from the simultaneous:
- claim that you found a gap in the market
- caginess about telling us what that gap is
- search for prototyping shops
He was just telling you how thirsty he is.
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@accalia said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
@Polygeekery said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
@blakeyrat said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
@Polygeekery said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
Why would anyone at home need to mix 7.1 channel audio?
Because they have a cable box, a PS4 and an Xbox One all sitting within 5 feet of each other and don't want to have to replug their 7.1 headsets (or receiver) every time they switch devices. That's not niche at all. That describes millions of households.
Also, millions of households do not have 7.1 channel headphones. I have never even seen a set outside of the clamshell packaging they are in at Fry's. No one I know has them.
o/
i have two pair. the discrete driver ones are pretty swank, but they suffer like hell when you turn the volume up beyone "whisper" the lack of big drivers hurts the Bass response like crazy and having so many voice coils so close together generates a lot of cross talk between channels at high volumes.
the "Virtual" 7.1 sets use a single, much larger driver and use psycho acoustics to simulate the 3d sound are markedly better but so far require a USB plug as they contain their own specialized DAC, and need to be calibrated to the listener or the 3d replication will be off. They have the advantage though of doing better at higher volumes without distortion thanks to the eliminated cross talk between voice coils as well as the bigger driver producing much more vibrant bass. they're also lighter which for a head mounted piece of equipment can only be good.
if you're looking for a pair, get the virtual ones. which is good because they're cheaper too..
I never said that no one has them, just that they are not exactly a common consumer device. I know people who have all sorts of shit. I know more people who own ukuleles than 7.1 channel headphones.
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@Polygeekery said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
I know more people who own ukuleles
o/
i can't play the thing worth a damn.
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@blakeyrat
Excuse my naivety with audio.
But I was under the impression that a mixer was to allow you to mix together several different sources of audio into one stream. Which would raise the question of how many households have the need for one.What you described (PS4, PC, XBOX, etc...) seems like the job of a standard Stereo setup to me.
Or I am missing something about audio setups?
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@Dragoon said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
@blakeyrat
Excuse my naivety with audio.
But I was under the impression that a mixer was to allow you to mix together several different sources of audio into one stream. Which would raise the question of how many households have the need for one.What you described (PS4, PC, XBOX, etc...) seems like the job of a standard Stereo setup to me.
Or I am missing something about audio setups?
You are only missing a cadre of shoulder aliens and a victim complex.
@Dragoon said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
@blakeyrat
Excuse my naivety with audio.
But I was under the impression that a mixer was to allow you to mix together several different sources of audio into one stream. Which would raise the question of how many households have the need for one.What you described (PS4, PC, XBOX, etc...) seems like the job of a standard Stereo setup to me.
Or I am missing something about audio setups?
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Wouldn't it be nice to play your games whilst listening to Kenny G though? You'd need a mixer.
Edit for spelling
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@blakeyrat said:
I've hit everybody in my network
Then no wonder they don't want to help you with this project! You should feel lucky they aren't pressing charges! :P
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@Dragoon said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
What you described (PS4, PC, XBOX, etc...) seems like the job of a standard Stereo setup to me.
Or I am missing something about audio setups?Well, first there's more than two channels (stereo = 2 channels, 7.1 = 8 channels). Secondly, there's multiple sources (PC + Xbox). As for availability, plenty of "gaming" headphones have 5.1 and 7.1 support now.
FWIW - a channel selector might be easier to put together. Essentially, outputting the wrong 7.1 format (DTS) to the DLL-speakers resulted in a bunch of white noise, from which I extrapolate-guess that there's not a whole lot of handshaking/negotiation going on. Meaning that you maybe could just switch between a bunch of input signals without really having to decode and re-encode any signal. Could of course be totally wrong (maybe relatively easily testable with a few components, assuming you don't need to go far over 1MHz in signal frequency).
Mixing would be harder, since you actually need to decode all signals, mix them (the easy part), and then re-encode them. That will suck if there are proprietary (and potentially undocumented) formats involved.
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@Polygeekery you're not supposed to troll in the help categories
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@wharrgarbl yeah, fair enough.
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@blakeyrat said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
@Polygeekery said in I've hit everybody in my network, now I try here: electrical engineer experience?:
Why would anyone at home need to mix 7.1 channel audio?
Because they have a cable box, a PS4 and an Xbox One all sitting within 5 feet of each other and don't want to have to replug their 7.1 headsets (or receiver) every time they switch devices. That's not niche at all. That describes millions of households.
OK. THAT should have been your first post in this thread, not some vague talk of "I've got an idea .... decoding S/PDIF, ....digital to analog conversion, etc." Now I actually understand what you're talking about.
However, I think what you have uncovered is a niche market, not a giant untapped market. Yes, it's true that a lot of people have all of those devices, and yes, they are technically capable of 7.1 audio.
But the point I think you're missing is: how many people actually give a shit about 7.1 and are actually using it on multiple devices, to the point where they would be willing to pay a couple hundred dollars for some sort of 7.1 audio mixer?
I'll bet that number is a lot smaller than you think it is, and I think that's proven by the fact that no such device exists.
The number of professionals willing to pay $4000 for a 7.1 mixer is greater than the number of non-professionals willing to pay $whatever.
