Clutch!
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@abarker if you have enough speed to open it, then engaging the handbrake would be almost certainly worst
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Holding the foot brake excessively can damage the disc
.... Wat.
If someone hits you from behind you can break your foot
..... ..... WAT.
If you are in the dark you can blind the driver behind with your brake lights.
...? What would be the result if... I don't know... everyone was stopped and holding the brake like normal?
I honestly have never heard any news reports lamenting how someone was blinded by brake lights....
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But there is a large force going through the brake line I can see this happening.
... Where is this large force coming from?
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@Mikael_Svahnberg said in Clutch!:
It is not stronger than the regular brakes
As you quickly discover when you start driving. And wonder why things feel sluggish.
BTDT. Was in the rain so couldn't hear the beeping that it was still engaged from the dash. Was wondering WTF was going on until I got to the gas station...
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@antiquarian said in Clutch!:
It seems like your car was designed for automatic transmission until some marketing idiot decided that they needed to offer a manual transmission as an option as well.
That used to be typical of American cars. It's only not the case now because Americans who buy cars with manual transmissions are doing so because they prefer them and expect to have more than brain-dead design.
I don't know.... My 2011 Toyota Tacoma has the parking break (which is hand operated, mind you!) as a pull-out mechanism that would be very uncomfortable operating while the vehicle is in motion.
https://www.toyota.com/t3Portal/document/om-s/OM35A58U/pdf/OM35A58U.pdf
Referencing page 21 for a picture. Page 154 where it describes operation.
Referencng page 135 for "Steep hill operation":
Use the parking brake? Nah...
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In a manual, you should be able to operate the handbrake with your hand, so you can concentrate on the gas pedal and the clutch while starting your car on a hill.
With one hand on the steering wheel, one hand on the shifter, and one hand on the handbrake. Got it... Wait, that's one too many hands!
No, Clutch and use left hand to shift to gear 1. Then left hand is free to hold the fabled "Hand brake" while still clutched. Right hand stays on the steering wheel. Other foot on the accelerator pedal.
It's not that I can't imagine this, just that I should wonder why it's the god mode method....
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(d) shift the gearstick to first gear
So you're not in first gear while standing? Why?
Don't you automatically shift into second gear and then first gear when braking at an intersection and coming to a full stop?
TBH I'm in Neutral while "standing". Also unless there's a need, I also do not have any brakes applied (The wonders of living in the valley where roads are almost always flat).
I also don't "down shift" while braking, because the benefit of the engine braking does not sufficiently exceed the power of the normal brakes to justify the stress on the transmission-clutch assemblies to do so... More often than not, I can control my braking much more effectively by using one method (the brakes) than combining braking and down-shifting.
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I was taught to continuously press the pedal.
Sure, so long as it's depressed far enough so it's completely disengaged the clutch. But that's annoying to me, especially in the case of "standing" for much more than about five seconds, so into neutral it goes!
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(if my foot gets tired in a traffic jam) turn the engine off completely.
I thank my lucky numbers I've never been in a traffic jam so bad that turning the engine off was a reasonable operation...
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SF
= San Francisco (?)
Certainly not.
Certainly so!
See? I told you: science fiction!
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SF
= San Francisco (?)
Certainly not.
Certainly so!
See? I told you: science fiction!
There! So much better!
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That works, and saves time and movement if you're in continuous stop-and-go driving, but if you have to hold it for a while, your leg can tire and subconsciously relax. If the car is in gear when that happens, you'll suddenly start moving when you don't expect to. Moving the stick to neutral prevents that issue.
The explanation I got from my driving instructor is that unless the pedal is 100% fully depressed, you'll be riding the clutch. While I find the possibility of releasing the clutch to the level that you suddenly start moving quite unlikely, doing so to the level that you start riding it seems quite likely. For the same reason I was taught to always remove my leg from the clutch pedal when I'm not using it.
I'm not sure if you'd get booted from the Czech driver's test if you kept the vehicle in gear while stopped. You very well might be as I was warned that shifting into neutral before stopping will land me in hot water so clearly proper gear manipulation is something they watch out for.
On a slightly unrelated note, unlike the Brits, I was never taught to engage the handbrake when stopped at a red. For hill starts, I was taught both with and without using the handbrake. I used to be absolutely useless without it until, eventually, I barely had to use it anymore unless the hill was really steep. Having driven an automatic for two years I'm probably back to being useless, probably even with the handbrake.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Clutch!:
I honestly have never heard any news reports lamenting how someone was blinded by brake lights....
To be honest, I do find the brake lights on some of the cars really annoying at night...
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Clutch!:
No, Clutch and use left hand to shift to gear 1.
95% of the word just rolled down the window :(
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9566% of the world just rolled down the window :(FTFY.
For all the driving I've done sitting on the left (about 95%), it still felt better to change into 5th gear with the left hand.
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shifting into neutral before stopping will land me in hot water so clearly proper gear manipulation is something they watch out for.
@Tsaukpaetra said in Clutch!:
I honestly have never heard any news reports lamenting how someone was blinded by brake lights....
To be honest, I do find the brake lights on some of the cars really annoying at night...
Annoying, but not likely to cause an accident due to blinding. Else, regulations would have them dim in opposite proportion to how the automatic lights (for those
fortunaterich enough to have them) turn on under certain lighting conditions.@Tsaukpaetra said in Clutch!:
No, Clutch and use left hand to shift to gear 1.
95% of the word just rolled down the window :(
I was adjusting my scenario to this fantastical opposite-world mode of driving.
;)@coldandtired said in Clutch!:
9566% of the world just rolled down the window :(FTFY.
For all the driving I've done sitting on the left (about 95%), it still felt better to change into 5th gear with the left hand.
Speaking as a left-hander, I'm sure I would agree.
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No, it doesn't, unless you've got some sort of monster crushing hydraulics set up for your brakes. Even if you hold the foot brake slightly while pressing the accelerator (so you only move forwards), the extra wear is minimal.
It about how the heat dissipates around the disc, it warps the disc.
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How would that even work? I know of no mechanism that would damage one's foot in such a way that would not also apply to having one's foot on the gas pedal or even just on the floor. Whoever told you this was just blowing a lot of smoke.
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No, it doesn't, unless you've got some sort of monster crushing hydraulics set up for your brakes. Even if you hold the foot brake slightly while pressing the accelerator (so you only move forwards), the extra wear is minimal.
It about how the heat dissipates around the disc, it warps the disc.
This is in part why I smooth-brake to better encourage even heat distribution throughout the whole disk during braking, to the point that by the time the vehicle is at rest the residual heat is relatively negligible.
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How would that even work? I know of no mechanism that would damage one's foot in such a way that would not also apply to having one's foot on the gas pedal or even just on the floor. Whoever told you this was just blowing a lot of smoke.
In a frontal car crash,
Literally the first words.
Which indicate a car hitting you from the front (or I suppose you hitting something while going forward while braking).
... Like, yeah?
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http://www.whiplashclinic.com/injury/foot-injury
Getting hit from behind by another car while your foot is on the brake pedal can result in the forces being focused in the arch of your foot to be injured.
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http://www.whiplashclinic.com/injury/foot-injury
Getting hit from behind by another car while your foot is on the brake pedal can result in the forces being focused in the arch of your foot to be injured.
https://youtu.be/EkeFAZf7J9E?t=34s
So riddle me this: If the collision causes you to move backwards (initially), which causes your foot to necessarily leave the brake pedal, how does the crash itself cause injury through said brake pedal (in contrast with, say, having your foot squarely on the floorboard)?
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@Tsaukpaetra I was talking about being rear-ended while stationary.
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@Tsaukpaetra I was talking about being rear-ended while stationary.
That is the exact scenario the linked YouTube video.
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@Tsaukpaetra I dunno.
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continuously press the pedal
That works, and saves time and movement if you're in continuous stop-and-go driving, but if you have to hold it for a while, your leg can tire and subconsciously relax. If the car is in gear when that happens, you'll suddenly start moving when you don't expect to. Moving the stick to neutral prevents that issue.
It's actually bad for the transmission if you press the pedal continually. There's a part in the transmission (the release bearing or "Ausrücklager" in German) which is under quite some stress when you press the pedal. It's not designed for continuous stress.
If it's stressed too much you'll first get some noise, followed by a complete replacement of the whole transmission.Also: If you're not using the gear stick don't even put your hands on it. Because even if you don't use it you'll exert miniscule forces which nevertheless translate into pressure on the transmission which in turn causes wear in the gears.
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@anotherusername said in Clutch!:
@asdf on the other hand, the way your car was built makes it easy (and even encouraged) to have both the handbrake and the gas applied at the same time, even if momentarily.
The way my car was built makes it easy to push down on the brake and the gas simultaneously; to open the door and turn off the ignition while speeding along the highway; to slam the door on one of my thumbs while standing outside; to drive into a wall.
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@Tsaukpaetra That pic is pretty bright. At night where I live it is pitch black.
The Highway Code - General rules, techniques and advice for all drivers and riders (103 to 158) - Guidance - GOV.UK
Signals, stopping procedures, lighting, control of the vehicle, speed limits, stopping distances, lines and lane markings and multi-lane carriageways, smoking, mobile phones and sat nav.
In stationary queues of traffic, drivers should apply the parking brake and, once the following traffic has stopped, take their foot off the footbrake to deactivate the vehicle brake lights. This will minimise glare to road users behind until the traffic moves again.
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You see, i liked my time in 'merica, but this is one if the situations which will keep me mostly in the UK:
- You stop in traffic
- You are on a steep hill, say a ramp into a multi-story car park
- The guy behind comes round the corner and sees the traffic and that you have stopped on a hill.
- They do not stop at the bottom of the hill, because they can see the traffic situation.
- They keep rolling along, up the bottom of the hill, until there is about 30cm (a foot) between you rear bumper and his front bumper.
- He says "Right, lets test his clutch control. If he rolls back into me, it's his fault, his insurance, teach him to drive better"
And this mentality keeps us on our toes to have good car control. It makes me smile :)
In 'merica I get some guy telling me i stopped too close to his car, even though I was about 1m (3 and a bit feet) from him... and it was flat. Appreciate that one guy with a shitty temper is not representative of all yank drivers.
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In 'merica I get some guy telling me i stopped too close to his car, even though I was about 1m (3 and a bit feet) from him... and it was flat. Appreciate that one guy with a shitty temper is not representative of all yank drivers.
That's because that gap is narrower than the average American
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The explanation I got from my driving instructor is that unless the pedal is 100% fully depressed, you'll be riding the clutch. […] For the same reason I was taught to always remove my leg from the clutch pedal when I'm not using it.
Since multiple people mentioned this, I did a quick Google search and came across an article on the topic (in German, unfortunately, which is why I'm not posting a link). Apparently, wearing out the clutch because you're using the pedal too much is pretty unlikely, and therefore your driving instructor's argument is BS. However, the lifetime of the hydraulic system is reduced by pressing the pedal unnecessarily, so the recommendation is still useful.
Edit: What @Rhywden said.
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In 'merica I get some guy telling me i stopped too close to his car, even though I was about 1m (3 and a bit feet) from him... and it was flat.
Yeah, you really were closer than you should be. I only get that close when I'm really trying to conserve space...like it's very crowded and trying to let people get into the left turn lane or something.
Appreciate that one guy with a shitty temper is not representative of all yank drivers.
The guy didn't even threaten you with one of his guns? Pshaw.
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While we are on the topic, whenever I think of Americans and 'learning stick drive' I always think of this and chuckle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ6atGhmVU8The smell must be worse then a thousand dead cats.
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@Helix A hot clutch does smell pretty bad. Burning rubber, on the other hand, I find oddly pleasant. But then I am a car fanatic
:D
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@RaceProUK said in Clutch!:
Burning rubber, on the other hand, I find oddly pleasant
To each his own, I don't like having friction burns afterwards.
(
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Apparently, wearing out the clutch because you're using the pedal too much is pretty unlikely
Well, yes. If the clutch pedal is completely depressed, the clutch is completely disconnected. If it is not depressed at all, it is completely connected. In neither case is the clutch plate slipping, therefore it's not getting worn out.
This is not what I was talking about though. I was talking about not fully depressing the pedal and depressing it very slightly. Cases where you could, depending on the sensitivity of the clutch pedal, end up riding the clutch.
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I was talking about not fully depressing the pedal and depressing it very slightly. Cases where you could, depending on the sensitivity of the clutch pedal, end up riding the clutch.
If you don't notice that, you have a shitty car. ;)
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Apparently, wearing out the clutch because you're using the pedal too much is pretty unlikely, and therefore your driving instructor's argument is BS.
Agreed: a typical gear change involves very little clutch slippage, so each additional change only adds an extremely tiny amount of wear. I'd be surprised if you manage to shorten the life of the clutch by more than a few weeks, which, given a clutch is meant to last more like ten years, is nothing.
Cases where you could, depending on the sensitivity of the clutch pedal, end up riding the clutch.
This, however, is very different, with a lot more clutch slip, which can lead to overheating, and the clutch will wear out a lot quicker.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Clutch!:
I don't know.... My 2011 Toyota Tacoma has the parking break (which is hand operated, mind you!) as a pull-out mechanism that would be very uncomfortable operating while the vehicle is in motion.
Just to clarify, I didn't say that the manual-transmission-as-an-afterthought never happens, just that it's no longer typical.
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@anotherusername said in Clutch!:
@asdf on the other hand, the way your car was built makes it easy (and even encouraged) to have both the handbrake and the gas applied at the same time, even if momentarily.
The way my car was built makes it easy to push down on the brake and the gas simultaneously; to open the door and turn off the ignition while speeding along the highway; to slam the door on one of my thumbs while standing outside; to drive into a wall.
And that proves?
Tell me, how many driving instructors will recommend doing those things, like they recommend using the handbrake and gas simultaneously?
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The way my car was built makes it easy to push down on the brake and the gas simultaneously
Trivia time!
Saab's first car, the 92, used a two-stroke engine that meant it only got lubrication while fuel was going into it. So, when going down a steep hill, you had to keep some throttle on and keep your speed down by braking, meaning when you get to the bottom of the hill and need to stop for a junction, your brakes have overheated, and you plough straight on and into the bush on the other side
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@RaceProUK said in Clutch!:
The way my car was built makes it easy to push down on the brake and the gas simultaneously
Trivia time!
Saab's first car, the 92, used a two-stroke engine that meant it only got lubrication while fuel was going into it. So, when going down a steep hill, you had to keep some throttle on and keep your speed down by braking, meaning when you get to the bottom of the hill and need to stop for a junction, your brakes have overheated, and you plough straight on and into the bush on the other side
Except that top gear got that wrong. If it were true, you would not be able to have the engine idling either. You could however not use the engine to brake because of the free wheeling hubs.
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@Mikael_Svahnberg said in Clutch!:
If it were true, you would not be able to have the engine idling either.
An idling engine still uses fuel. However, when going downhill (with the clutch engaged), the car's momentum can be enough to keep the engine running without any fuel at all ;)
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@RaceProUK hence the free wheeling hubs.
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@anotherusername said in Clutch!:
@anotherusername said in Clutch!:
@asdf on the other hand, the way your car was built makes it easy (and even encouraged) to have both the handbrake and the gas applied at the same time, even if momentarily.
The way my car was built makes it easy to push down on the brake and the gas simultaneously; to open the door and turn off the ignition while speeding along the highway; to slam the door on one of my thumbs while standing outside; to drive into a wall.
And that proves?
Tell me, how many driving instructors will recommend doing those things, like they recommend using the handbrake and gas simultaneously?
It doesn't prove anything.
I just saying: just because something can be done easily, doesn't mean people will do it.
You were implying (or at least I read it that way) that the handbrake placement was a bad idea because it encourages using the handbrake and gas simultaneously.
But disengaging your handbrake before pulling away is one of the first things you learn. If someone can't do it as second nature they have no business driving.
And in the particular situation we're discussing in this thread, it's quite useful.
There's also this, but you definitely don't want to use that in every day situations:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfq2w7ZxkbI
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Clutch!:
I honestly have never heard any news reports lamenting how someone was blinded by brake lights....
To be honest, I do find the brake lights on some of the cars really annoying at night...
I find the headlights on many cars to be really annoying. Especially those asshats that insist on leaving their brights on.
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I just saying: just because something can be done easily, doesn't mean people will do it.
Yeah, and that doesn't apply to this situation. Their cars let them easily use the handbrake and the gas at the same time and they are actually doing it.
If you're not using them at the same time, then there's no practical advantage in using the handbrake over the regular brakes; the only practical advantage that the handbrake has is that you don't have to release it (and let your car potentially roll back) before applying gas (to prevent the car from rolling back) like you would if you're driving properly with 1 foot for the brake and gas pedals (properly, i.e. not heel-to-toeing it). But if you're doing it properly, you don't roll backward anyway, because the transition is very quick.
