Drug prohibition
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@Jaloopa Summary: druggies gonna drug
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@boomzilla said in Drug prohibition:
@UndergroundCode said in Drug prohibition:
If anything terrible was going to happen, we should have seen it already.
Maybe. But what about long term health effects from increase usage? And will usage increase? Either by particular individuals or with more individuals using. Some of the studies about long term effects (and let's be honest, if you've known any serious potheads this isn't a surprise!) are kind of scary in an idiocracy sense.
There may be some bad ones, but we don't know for sure, exactly because of prohibition. If there are any, I'm not sure we're making anything better with prohibition. It might actually be better without, because you can set minimum ages that are more likely to be at least somewhat effective.
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@boomzilla said in Drug prohibition:
Another interesting factor is how modern strains have been bred to have much higher THC content
I wonder if that means people smoke fewer joints, improving the health of their lungs? I know on the odd occasion that I smoke I tend to have one and be properly buzzed for several hours.
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@Jaloopa said in Drug prohibition:
I wonder if that means people smoke fewer joints, improving the health of their lungs?
Not IME.
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@Jaloopa said in Drug prohibition:
@UndergroundCode said in Drug prohibition:
People going to jail, doing all sorts of things to avoid the police to avoid going to jail, dealing with sketchy dealers and people who know they have to avoid the police, dealing with unknown quality and purity. People who need treatment being afraid to get it, or getting the wrong treatment, because they're afraid of going to jail and getting a criminal record.
Also stealing to support a habit, which could be hugely reduced by providing drugs on prescription to addicts
There's probably some, which is why I said 2/3 of all negative effects instead of all. Though I tend to think there's a lot less of that then some prohibitionists would have you think. Drugs are expensive enough that it's gotta be hard to sustain a real addiction on theft. You'd have to be a pretty effective thief, which is not so easy when you're hooked on drugs and desperate for a fix.
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@Jaloopa said in Drug prohibition:
@boomzilla said in Drug prohibition:
Another interesting factor is how modern strains have been bred to have much higher THC content
I wonder if that means people smoke fewer joints, improving the health of their lungs? I know on the odd occasion that I smoke I tend to have one and be properly buzzed for several hours.
Smoking a joint is actually the worst way to dose oneself with cannabis, because one gets all the soot and extra chemical junk into one's lungs. Steaming it (vaporisation) is better, because the THC can be extracted much more purely and the "dosing" can be better controlled. Next up would be heating the leaves in butter or oil and then using this "special" ingredient in some other recipe. That also does a fairly good job of extracting only the "good stuff" from the plant.
I am not against legitimately medical use for marijuana, which includes pain management (it helps people with extreme pain to be able to focus on other things) and increasing appetite for chemo patients (especially children, who may starve themselves just because they don't feel like eating; adults can force themselves to eat in spite of nausea to avoid malnutrition). Weed, because it's fat- and oil-soluble, is quickly absorbed into a person's fatty tissues and slowly released, resulting in an automatic "stepping down" off of it with little to no withdrawal symptoms, which in turn leads to lower dependency/addiction than current pain meds, like morphine or codeine.
So here's my position. Any kind of drug should be used only for medical purposes. If someone has psychological issues, they should get actual help, not simply treat the symptoms with "recreational" drug use (yes, this includes nicotine, alcohol, etc.).
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@djls45 said in Drug prohibition:
So here's my position. Any kind of drug should be used only for medical purposes. If someone has psychological issues, they should get actual help, not simply treat the symptoms with "recreational" drug use (yes, this includes nicotine, alcohol, etc.).
And I'd like world peace and the end of hunger in the world.
Now, can we move on to something realistic? Large chunks of this thread are blissfully ignoring reality. Tobacco and alcohol, whether we want it or not, have already an ingrained status in our societies and cannot be banned. Alcohol in particular, has some huge cultural background (including in religion, I know some teetotaler Christian churches manage to avoid wine in communion, but it's not as easy as saying "ban all alcohol!").
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@remi Some studies have shown small amounts of red wine can actually have health benefits. I don't have any to hand, but they're not hard to find.
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@djls45 said in Drug prohibition:
If someone has psychological issues, they should get actual help, not simply treat the symptoms with "recreational" drug use (yes, this includes nicotine, alcohol, etc.).
What about the rest of the population without psychological issues and that's just aiming for a bit of fun? It's been a few years since I considered getting roaring drunk a fun pastime, but I remember occasionally quite enjoying it. (Also sleeping in an hour or two, because, honestly, a two hour lecture on quantum physics is not that difficult to catch up to, and you were going to have a headache anyway.)
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@RaceProUK, @remi, Indeed, that's why I said only for medicinal use, not "ban it all!"
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@cvi If some people think that impairing their mental capabilities is just a bit of fun, I'd say they have psych issues. It may only be immaturity, but their psyches are not working as healthy, mature, adult minds should. And before you get in a huff about me calling you insane, I'll point out that we all either are or were at least a little crazy, and that that is how some people's crazy manifests.
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@djls45 said in Drug prohibition:
@RaceProUK, @remi, Indeed, that's why I said only for medicinal use, not "ban it all!"
Yeah, ban things people do for fun. That'll work!
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@djls45 What are the medicinal uses of a two hour lecture on quantum physics in the first place?
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@cvi said in Drug prohibition:
What about the rest of the population without psychological issues and that's just aiming for a bit of fun?
I'm of the opinion that the best approach is Legalize, Regulate and Tax. Legalisation goes a long way towards removing the harm (not all, but there's also general harm in banning things), regulation allows controlling the safety (e.g., dosages, purity, etc.), and taxation because
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@djls45 said in Drug prohibition:
@cvi If some people think that impairing their mental capabilities is just a bit of fun, I'd say they have psych issues.
We're born addicts. Activating the septal area of our brains is the objective function of our minds. If you had a button for doing it you wouldn't do anything else until you starve.
The Neuroscience Of Pleasure
I know what you're thinking: What does it feel like for a human to have his or her medial forebrain reward circuitry stimulated with an electrode? Does it produce a crazy pleasure that's better than food or sex or sleep or even "Seinfeld" reruns?
“During these sessions, B-19 stimulated himself to a point that, both behaviorally and introspectively, he was experiencing an almost overwhelming euphoria and elation and had to be disconnected despite his vigorous protests.”
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@djls45 said in Drug prohibition:
And before you get in a huff about me calling you insane,
"Insane" isn't the word I'd use. "Uptight" maybe. A bit of crazy is healthy every now and then. When was the last time you enjoyed a beer on the roof of a 10 story building you're not really supposed to be on, catching the last of the sun as it sets over the city, fully well knowing that getting down after dark while tipsy will be a PITA? (It's been far too long for me.)
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@cvi You mean, outside at sunset? The favorite time for mosquitoes to bite? Insane!
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@cvi said in Drug prohibition:
When was the last time you enjoyed a beer on the roof of a 10 story building you're not really supposed to be on
That reminds me, I gotta figure out if there's any roof access on my building. It seems like it'd be fun to hang out up there.
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I heard alcohol was basically the grease that helped early societies to not tear themselves apart.
Like all things, moderation is key. Sure some people overdo it, but should we let them ruin it for the rest of us?
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Marijuana associated with three-fold risk of death from hypertension
Marijuana use is associated with a three-fold risk of death from hypertension, according to new research.
Marijuana users had a higher risk of dying from hypertension. Compared to non-users, marijuana users had a 3.42-times higher risk of death from hypertension and a 1.04 greater risk for each year of use.
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@boomzilla why are you trying to give me hypertension? You insensitive clod. I may have to switch to alcohol and die of liver cancer, arrhythmia, stroke,...,racism, fascism,...
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@boomzilla said in Drug prohibition:
Marijuana users had a higher risk of dying from hypertension. Compared to non-users, marijuana users had a 3.42-times higher risk of death from hypertension and a 1.04 greater risk for each year of use.
It would be interesting to see how if they can establish a causal link. I wouldn't be surprised if it was higher stress levels causing both.
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@antiquarian said in Drug prohibition:
It would be interesting to see how if they can establish a causal link.
TFA seemed to say that raised BP is a known side effect. Also, a 3X risk in an observational study like this is the sort of result (as opposed to stuff like 1.2X that you get with second hand smoke, first hand smoke is ~20X, for reference) that is epidemiologically interesting.
Given the weakness of their "how much did you use" approach it wouldn't be surprising to me if the effect was stronger than that based on dosage.
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@boomzilla said in Drug prohibition:
TFA seemed to say that raised BP is a known side effect. Also, a 3X risk in an observational study like this is the sort of result (as opposed to stuff like 1.2X that you get with second hand smoke, first hand smoke is ~20X, for reference) that is epidemiologically interesting.
The typical application essentially is first hand smoke so that makes sense.
Fortunately, beer also works for reducing stress.
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@dse said in Drug prohibition:
racism, fascism
Wrong drug.
When researchers looked into the question of "how could such widespread inhumanity have arisen, not just at the top of Nazi Germany but throughout the Third Reich, even among the people at the bottom who were implementing Hitler's terrible policies?", one thing that keeps coming up is the Wehrmacht's widespread policy of giving methamphetamine to its soldiers as a stimulant to make them more effective in combat.
While this doesn't explain away all the evil of the Nazis--it's worth noting that for the most part the Third Reich stayed on the course laid out by Hitler in Mein Kampf, which was written well before the Nazi party rose to power--it does help explain how they got the rank-and-file to go along with such monstrous acts: they were under the influence of mind-altering drugs known to modern science to turn people into monsters.
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@boomzilla But maybe he had good experiences with drugs and is happy he tried them and is just too busy to do drugs now...
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@cvi said in Drug prohibition:
"Insane" isn't the word I'd use. "Uptight" maybe. A bit of crazy is healthy every now and then. When was the last time you enjoyed a beer on the roof of a 10 story building you're not really supposed to be on, catching the last of the sun as it sets over the city, fully well knowing that getting down after dark while tipsy will be a PITA? (It's been far too long for me.)
I guess it was 2006. My girlfriend at the time and I hopped the fence into a construction site and we climbed to the roof to enjoy the view.
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@masonwheeler said in Drug prohibition:
@dse said in Drug prohibition:
racism, fascism
Wrong drug.
When researchers looked into the question of "how could such widespread inhumanity have arisen, not just at the top of Nazi Germany but throughout the Third Reich, even among the people at the bottom who were implementing Hitler's terrible policies?", one thing that keeps coming up is the Wehrmacht's widespread policy of giving methamphetamine to its soldiers as a stimulant to make them more effective in combat.
While this doesn't explain away all the evil of the Nazis--it's worth noting that for the most part the Third Reich stayed on the course laid out by Hitler in Mein Kampf, which was written well before the Nazi party rose to power--it does help explain how they got the rank-and-file to go along with such monstrous acts: they were under the influence of mind-altering drugs known to modern science to turn people into monsters.
Do you know of a good drug infested den? Just asking for a narcissist seeking a base to build the next Reich.
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A big argument I've heard from proponents of legal marijuana has always been the massive amount of taxes they'd generate.
California pot taxes lag as illegal market flourishes
Most California marijuana consumers are continuing to purchase pot in the illegal marketplace, which means less money for the state.
The Democrat's proposed spending plan, released Thursday, projects the state will bank $355 million in marijuana excise taxes by the end of June. That's roughly half of what was once expected after broad legal sales kicked off last year.
OK, still, $355M sounds like quite a lot for this one thing.
Newsom also recommended a sharp increase in spending for regulatory programs, although it's an open question whether it will be enough to help steady the state pot economy. The budget recommends just over $200 million for marijuana-related activities in the fiscal year that starts July 1, which would be over a 50 percent boost from the current year.
So that's either 4/7 or 2/7 of the revenue (it's unclear to me if the revenue is for an entire year or just the calendar year through June). Looks like they're going to need a new generation of revenuers!
The budget also includes an additional $2.9 million for the California Department of Tax and Fee Administration to help chase down tax cheats.
Ah.
By some estimates, up to 80 percent of sales in the state remain under the table, snatching profits from legal storefronts.
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@boomzilla said in Drug prohibition:
By some estimates, up to 80 percent of sales in the state remain under the table, snatching profits from legal storefronts.
Money talks. And people will always go for the cheaper solution.
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@boomzilla said in Drug prohibition:
Trying to live up to your beliefs and failing isn't hypocrisy.
Tell that to my ex-wife. This is why she's my ex. She was (and as far as I know, still is) convinced that my inability to live up to my beliefs meant that I was a liar who never had the slightest intention of living up to them.
Sorry, that struck a painful nerve. I now return you to your regularly scheduled necro.
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@HardwareGeek said in Drug prohibition:
@boomzilla said in Drug prohibition:
Trying to live up to your beliefs and failing isn't hypocrisy.
Tell that to my ex-wife. This is why she's my ex. She was (and as far as I know, still is) convinced that my inability to live up to my beliefs meant that I was a liar who never had the slightest intention of living up to them.
Sorry, that struck a painful nerve. I now return you to your regularly scheduled necro.
Please relate the above to drug prohibition.
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@HardwareGeek said in Drug prohibition:
@boomzilla said in Drug prohibition:
Trying to live up to your beliefs and failing isn't hypocrisy.
Tell that to my ex-wife. This is why she's my ex. She was (and as far as I know, still is) convinced that my inability to live up to my beliefs meant that I was a liar who never had the slightest intention of living up to them.
Sorry, that struck a painful nerve. I now return you to your regularly scheduled necro.
Sorry to hear that. I hope it's at least a little consolation that my
is on your side, though.
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@TimeBandit said in Drug prohibition:
I believe that, as long as you don't hurt anybody else but yourself, who am I to stop you.
Totally agreed. And that is how America was founded. On the principles of personal liberty, so long as you aren't infringing on anyone else's personal liberty.
TL;DR: The government really shouldn't have a say in what I chose to do with my own body.
Prohibition in any form doesn't alter either the production or consumption of the substance in question, whether it be alcohol in the 1920s or any substance except alcohol and tobacco which can be vaguely interpreted as pleasurable since 1971.
All it does is create a lucrative black market, which provides the financial backbone for most organised crime, and increases the price such that addicts need to commit petty property crimes to be able to afford their habits.Personally, I don't think the substance is the problem with illegal drugs, but rather the fact that they are illegal. If they were available in the same manner as alcohol and tobacco, manufactured to proper standards, and dispensed responsibly they wouldn't represent a social problem at all. Even if they were taxed, the price would be lower than they are on the black market and would generate a substantial amount of revenue for the state.
Here in Australia, the price of illegal drugs is absurdly high (roughly 10 X the street price in the US, UK or Canada), but people still pay it.
The decriminalisation of marijuana on its own sends an inaccurate message that THC is not inherently dangerous or addictive. Personally, I can't stand the stuff and do not enjoy the experience at all (makes me anxious, paranoid and queazy). I also know several people who do enjoy it, some of them can handle it just fine, and its use is harmless in their lives, whilst I've also seen it completely destroy the lives of others.
I think that everyone responds differently to different drugs and that it isn't the substance that is inherently moral or immoral, but rather the user's choice in what substances they use and how much of it they use. In some cases, drugs are damn effective and improve your quality of life immensely, while in other cases, the same drug can be highly deleterious to another person. It's really up to the individual to decide.
In my case, I've got a serious orthopedic injury which causes me extreme pain even years and several surgeries later. I couldn't live without Oxycodone, and the fact that I'm addicted to an opioid doesn't bother me, as aside from the withdrawals I'd face if I were to stop taking it, I'd also have to deal with chronic and extreme pain that prevents me from walking and be such a distraction that I couldn't do a damn thing.
In my experience, the whole tolerance thing is kind of a myth, as I've been on the same (albeit high) dose for nearly 5 years, and it's remained effective at relieving pain. Granted, the euphoric experience wears off after a few days of taking it, but for me, that's a good thing, as it no longer impairs my cognition.Only these days, I need an approval from the highest levels of federal government to be prescribed it, and they are continually trying to get me off it by suggesting mind-over-matter bullshit like NLP as a viable alternative. That, and whenever I travel to the US, the pharmacist looks at me like I'm an almost sub-human junkie every time I have a script filled.
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@idzy said in Drug prohibition:
Even if they were taxed, the price would be lower than they are on the black market and would generate a substantial amount of revenue for the state.
Not necessarily. https://what.thedailywtf.com/post/1470614
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@boomzilla said in Drug prohibition:
@idzy said in Drug prohibition:
Even if they were taxed, the price would be lower than they are on the black market and would generate a substantial amount of revenue for the state.
Not necessarily. https://what.thedailywtf.com/post/1470614
This may be true for the US. As I said in my original post, Downunder, most street drugs cost 10 times what they do in north America or Europe.
Marijuana is probably the exception, which is cheap as hell and hasn't increased in price for my entire life. Whilst it is technically criminally illegal in Australia, depending on where you live, this law goes mostly unenforced, with police either turning a blind eye, or treating it in the same way as drinking in a public place, confiscating your weed, and casually telling you "don't let me catch you doing this again"
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@idzy said in Drug prohibition:
whilst I've also seen it completely destroy the lives of others.
THC is not inherently dangerous or addictive. It is completely and utterly incapable of causing physical addiction. It can cause psychological addiction, but only to the extent that literally everything else that provides dopamine can.
@idzy said in Drug prohibition:
Even if they were taxed, the price would be lower than they are on the black market and would generate a substantial amount of revenue for the state.
People still routinely buy marijuana from unlicensed dealers in California because legal marijuana is far more expensive.
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@pie_flavor said in Drug prohibition:
People still routinely buy marijuana from unlicensed dealers in California because legal marijuana is far more expensive.
People smuggle cigarettes in the UK despite them never having been made illegal at all. It's all about tax dodging.
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@Luhmann You have the tenses wrong.
wouldn't get that wrong.Also, most of the smuggling seems to be just taking a hire-van over to
or 
and loading up at a supermarket before driving back.
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@dkf Yes, that's what I said.
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@dkf said in Drug prohibition:
@pie_flavor said in Drug prohibition:
People still routinely buy marijuana from unlicensed dealers in California because legal marijuana is far more expensive.
People smuggle cigarettes in the UK despite them never having been made illegal at all. It's all about tax dodging.
Not to mention moonshine. While access to alcohol is cheap and ubiquituous.
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@dkf said in Drug prohibition:
@pie_flavor said in Drug prohibition:
People still routinely buy marijuana from unlicensed dealers in California because legal marijuana is far more expensive.
People smuggle cigarettes in the UK despite them never having been made illegal at all. It's all about tax dodging.
Lots of that in the US, too, since the taxes vary wildly by state. And there aren't even any Federal taxes when you buy them on an Indian Reservation. Terrorist organizations seem to make some money off of it, too.
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@dkf said in Drug prohibition:
@Luhmann You have the tenses wrong.
You've got the thing he's got wrong wrong.
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@Gąska
I'm glad you two agree on who's wrong here
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Hawaii is considering a bill that bans cigarette sales to anyone under 100 | CNN
A new bill in Hawaii’s State House says “the cigarette is considered the deadliest artifact in human history” and calls for a phased ban on cigarette sales in the state by 2024.
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@Rhywden said in Drug prohibition:
@dkf said in Drug prohibition:
@pie_flavor said in Drug prohibition:
People still routinely buy marijuana from unlicensed dealers in California because legal marijuana is far more expensive.
People smuggle cigarettes in the UK despite them never having been made illegal at all. It's all about tax dodging.
Not to mention moonshine. While access to alcohol is cheap and ubiquituous.
One interesting thing regarding moonshine is that it seems to have largely vanished outside of pubs using it for filler since we joined the EU. Kids seems to drink cheap smuggled booze instead. Everyone knows where you get it as well. Some of the smuggled stuff is even worse than the moonshine we used to have.
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@Carnage said in Drug prohibition:
One interesting thing regarding moonshine is that it seems to have largely vanished outside of pubs using it for filler since we joined the EU.
Some US outfits have gone legit and you can now buy their stuff in stores. I've been tempted just for the hell of it but I've never pulled the trigger.
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@boomzilla said in Drug prohibition:
@Carnage said in Drug prohibition:
One interesting thing regarding moonshine is that it seems to have largely vanished outside of pubs using it for filler since we joined the EU.
Some US outfits have gone legit and you can now buy their stuff in stores. I've been tempted just for the hell of it but I've never pulled the trigger.
From what I've tried of Virginian moonshine, unless you need something as a cleaning fluid, you'd be better off avoiding.
