Drug prohibition
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@Quwertzuiopp said in The official unpopular opinions thread:
@Karla Let's get really controversial here, ok?
Coffee and Beer taste digusting, and saying it's an aquired taste is essentially just admitting that you have a weak will and let society press you into Stockholming disgusting shit.
And on the topic of drugs, I think this fad of legalizing Marijuana is a terrible mistake. I think it is morally wrong to take any kind of drugs of any kind and that includes any and all kind of alcohol and nicotine. If anything, we shouldn't talk about legalizing new stuff, we should be talking about forbidding all drugs that are still legal, including alcohol. Prohibition was a great idea, but the criminalization of drug use is a bad one. We should enforce total prohibition on all drugs but coffein (since it has no serious side effects, no malicious effect and a "caffein addiction" is literally easier to beat than uncrontrollably chewing you nails), but shouldn't wage a war on drugs over them. All suppliers should face harsh consequences, but addicts and "casual users" should be seen as what they are: sick people seeking an escape and in need of help.
It could take a generation or two of intense community work and information campaigns, but breaking the shackles of alcohol abuse would be one step foreward in freeing humanity. Substances like that should be taken only medically and prescribing medical weed when it isn't strictly necessary should result in the prescriber being banned from all public and all healthcare professions. Medical weed should not be smoked to make it cool, but be supplied in the form of disgustingly bitter pills or something like that.
IMO the problem with prohibition is that drugs turned extremely profitable, and in "developing" countries it means now criminals have enough money to bribe the entire police force and e some politicians that support their interests.
Cocaine shouldn't be more expensive than wheat, then we wouldn't have criminals with military grade weapons, and tourists dying because the GPS told them to enter restricted criminal-controlled areas.
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@wharrgarbl said in Drug prohibition:
@Quwertzuiopp said in The official unpopular opinions thread:
And on the topic of drugs, I think this fad of legalizing Marijuana is a terrible mistake. I think it is morally wrong to take any kind of drugs of any kind
I think imposing your morality onto everyone is morally wrong
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@TimeBandit I think not giving a shit about other people to the extent that you ignore them participating in self destructive behavior is morally wrong.
Filed Under: INB4
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This thread's getting towed into the Garage in 3, 2, 1...
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@boomzilla So, we should ban McDonald's ?
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@TimeBandit Are you another_sam's alt?
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@boomzilla There is lots of ways for people to participate in self destructive behavior.
What about people that take anti-depressant pills ?
People that have unprotected sex with multiple partners ?
etc...I believe that, as long as you don't hurt anybody else but yourself, who am I to stop you.
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@TimeBandit I never said anything about stopping them.
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@boomzilla FYI, I do give a shit about other people's problems.
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@TimeBandit I never said you didn't.
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@boomzilla So, we're not arguing. We seem to agree
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@TimeBandit I never said I agreed with you.
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I think we need to admit that the entire concept of drug prohibition is a total failure. We've tried every single variation anyone has ever come up with on how to do it for decades, and none of them have worked. We can't even keep drugs out of prison, for God's sake. No, your cute new idea on how to make prohibition work is not new or innovative, it's just another dumb variation on what has already been tried, and it will fail just like all of the rest.
I say legalize the entire supply chain for drugs in addition to personal use, use the tax revenue and savings from not fighting virtual wars against these guys to treat those who have addiction problems, and mind your own business when it comes to casual users.
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@antiquarian said in The official unpopular opinions thread:
@Karla said in The official unpopular opinions thread:
This not being the I won't get into it other than my position is based on personal freedom.
We do have a garage thread on the subject. Why don't you post there?
Still not garaged
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@wharrgarbl said in Drug prohibition:
Still not garaged
Dude, this is your thread. Why didn't you post it in the garage?
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@antiquarian cause it doesn't need to turn in a full flame war
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@wharrgarbl YMBNH
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I'm OK if mods put it in the garage, and move the flames from the unpopular opinions here though
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@wharrgarbl said in Drug prohibition:
I'm OK if mods put it in the garage, and move the flames from the unpopular opinions here though
That sounds enough like work to annoy the mods. I approve.
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@antiquarian said in Drug prohibition:
@wharrgarbl said in Drug prohibition:
Still not garaged
Dude, this is your thread. Why didn't you post it in the garage?
He'd rather delete it.
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I hosted a talk by Neil Woods a few months ago. He was an undercover policeman in the drug squad for years, and helped to bring down some of the biggest dealers in Britain at the time. He now campaigns for LEAP, and puts forward a really good case that the war on drugs has done nothing except make drug dealers more violent and dangerous.
He was once involved in bringing down basically every dealer in Birmingham, completely clearing the entire city of its drug supply. For about 3 hours.
Really interesting guy, and he's written a book about it
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Good-Cop-Bad-Neil-Woods-ebook/dp/B019CGXP90
'I've done really bad things': The undercover cop who abandoned the war on drugs
Neil Woods used to risk his life to catch drug dealers. But as gangs responded with escalating violence and intimidation – some even poisoning users who talked to the police – he started to see legalisation as the only solution
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@Jaloopa Of course, legalization is just more institutionalized racism!
Even if you took out the criminal history imbalance, etc, I'm sure it would still be viewed that way.
America's Whites-Only Weed Boom
Black Americans were disproportionately targeted in the "war on drugs." Now state laws and steep regulatory costs have left them far more likely to be shut out of America's profitable marijuana boom.
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I've taken many different (illegal, recreational) drugs back in the day. I still enjoy drinking alcohol and occasionally smoking tobacco.
It'd be hypocritical to have an issue with drugs now.
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@loopback0 And that's actually what makes this whole thing so stupid: If someone wants a particular drug they can get it - easily.
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@loopback0 said in Drug prohibition:
It'd be hypocritical to have an issue with drugs now.
If you still did, it might be. But not if you made the decision based on your experience. Or even if you believed that it was wrong but still occasionally fell off the wagon. Trying to live up to your beliefs and failing isn't hypocrisy.
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@Jaloopa I forgot that part too - I'd say that roughly 2/3 of the negative effects of drugs are entirely based on prohibition. People going to jail, doing all sorts of things to avoid the police to avoid going to jail, dealing with sketchy dealers and people who know they have to avoid the police, dealing with unknown quality and purity. People who need treatment being afraid to get it, or getting the wrong treatment, because they're afraid of going to jail and getting a criminal record.
Fortunately, with several states legalizing marijuana for recreational use, we'll get to see soon how good or bad it is. If anything terrible was going to happen, we should have seen it already.
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@UndergroundCode said in Drug prohibition:
If anything terrible was going to happen, we should have seen it already.
Maybe. But what about long term health effects from increase usage? And will usage increase? Either by particular individuals or with more individuals using. Some of the studies about long term effects (and let's be honest, if you've known any serious potheads this isn't a surprise!) are kind of scary in an idiocracy sense.
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@boomzilla Ok, so maybe the wrong word in the context of having taken them before. Ultimately taking/buying/possessing illegal substances wasn't worth the risk of what getting caught would do to my job. Ignoring the legality, IMO drinking alcohol but having an issue with, say, cannabis is hypocritical.
If legalising cannabis means that some people take it instead of alcohol and they're not funding criminal activity in the process, then it's surely not a bad thing?
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@boomzilla said in Drug prohibition:
the studies about long term effects (and let's be honest, if you've known any serious potheads this isn't a surprise!) are kind of scary in an idiocracy sense.
yeah, we should also note that the studies are too few to have a conclusion.
also, serious potheads are comparable to serious alcoholics IME.
the problem is not the use, it is the abuse.
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@boomzilla I love the "gateway drug" hypothesis.
In every studies, 100% of Cocaine & Heroine addicts have used milk before in their life.
Therefore, milk is a gateway drug
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@TimeBandit said in Drug prohibition:
Therefore, milk is a gateway drug
I was going to make a joke about banning cows... but that'd involve banning beef and I don't want to live in that world.
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@UndergroundCode said in Drug prohibition:
People going to jail, doing all sorts of things to avoid the police to avoid going to jail, dealing with sketchy dealers and people who know they have to avoid the police, dealing with unknown quality and purity. People who need treatment being afraid to get it, or getting the wrong treatment, because they're afraid of going to jail and getting a criminal record.
Also stealing to support a habit, which could be hugely reduced by providing drugs on prescription to addicts
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@loopback0 said in Drug prohibition:
Ignoring the legality, IMO drinking alcohol but having an issue with, say, cannabis is hypocritical.
I'd have to hear the reason.
@loopback0 said in Drug prohibition:
If legalising cannabis means that some people take it instead of alcohol and they're not funding criminal activity in the process, then it's surely not a bad thing?
Surely? I'd rather see my kids (even / especially as adults) drinking alcohol than smoking marijuana. I know lots of people say that they can smoke recreationally and it's not a problem but a lot of the people I've known IRL who've said that are fooling themselves.
Not that I don't like the experiment of having some states legalize marijuana.
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@Jaloopa said in Drug prohibition:
Also stealing to support a habit, which could be hugely reduced by providing drugs on prescription to addicts
The socialized healthcare flame wars are
.
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@boomzilla said in Drug prohibition:
I know lots of people say that they can smoke recreationally and it's not a problem but a lot of the people I've known IRL who've said that are fooling themselves.
Or the people who don't have problems just don't tell you they smoke.
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@antiquarian said in Drug prohibition:
Or the people who don't have problems just don't tell you they smoke.
Could be, but regular users seem like vegans in that sense.
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@boomzilla said in Drug prohibition:
I know lots of people say that they can
smokedrink recreationally and it's not a problem but a lot of the people I've known IRL who've said that are fooling themselves.That applies to alcohol too for plenty of people.
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@TimeBandit said in Drug prohibition:
@boomzilla I love the "gateway drug" hypothesis.
In every studies, 100% of Cocaine & Heroine addicts have used milk before in their life.
Therefore, milk is a gateway drug
It's basically a post hoc ergo proctor hoc fallacy. Nobody looks at the number of cannabis users who move on to cocaine or the number of cannabis users on its own, just the number of cocaine users who started on cannabis.
@boomzilla said in Drug prohibition:
Maybe. But what about long term health effects from increase usage? And will usage increase?
Doesn't the evidence from places that have legalised or decriminalised it show that after an initial spike usage tends to drop?
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@loopback0 said in Drug prohibition:
That applies to alcohol too for plenty of people.
Not in the same way IME.
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@boomzilla said in Drug prohibition:
I'd rather see my kids (even / especially as adults) drinking alcohol than smoking marijuana.
People seem to always assume Alcohol is not a drug.
Depressants
Depressants slow normal brain function. Because of this effect, depressants are often used to treat anxiety and sleep disorders.Although the different depressant drugs work uniquely in the brain, it is through their effect on GABA activity that produces a drowsy or calming effect. GABA works to decrease brain activity.
Despite their prescription for treatment of anxiety and sleep disorders, depressants also carry high addictive potential. The withdrawal effects from long-term depressant use can be life-threatening and produce some of the worst consequences of any other drug classifications. Keep in mind: this includes alcohol.
Examples include: alcohol, Valium, Xanax, Librium, and barbiturates.
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@Jaloopa said in Drug prohibition:
Doesn't the evidence from places that have legalised or decriminalised it show that after an initial spike usage tends to drop?
I don't know. Got a link?
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@boomzilla said in Drug prohibition:
I don't know. Got a link?
While he's at it, it's only been illegal here for roughly 100 years, so it would also be interesting to see what's available from the pre-prohibition period.
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@antiquarian Another interesting factor is how modern strains have been bred to have much higher THC content.
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@boomzilla That may be just another unfortunate side-effect of criminalization. On the other hand, with the modern-day tendency to squeeze out every last penny of profit, it may have happened anyway.
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@antiquarian Not much of a problem, though. Simply put proper dosage signs on the drug in question. Works for alcohol.
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@antiquarian said in Drug prohibition:
On the other hand, with the modern-day tendency to squeeze out every last penny of profit, it may have happened anyway.
They did it with nicotine too
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@wharrgarbl Though they also included a lot of other stuff. Because, frankly, you really don't want to smoke pure tobacco.
That should be another lesson: Legalization only for "pure" product. Any kind of filler needs to be inert.
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@boomzilla said in Drug prohibition:
@Jaloopa said in Drug prohibition:
Doesn't the evidence from places that have legalised or decriminalised it show that after an initial spike usage tends to drop?
I don't know. Got a link?
I think it was Portugal that was floating around in my mind
Home | Transform
Transform Drug Policy Foundation is an independent charity working towards a safer system of legal regulation for all drugs. When we legalise and regulate drugs that are currently illegal we can take the power away from organised crime and establish safety controls.
Hard to know exactly what to attribute to decriminalisation and what's from the parallel move to treat drug addiction more as a health issue, but by most measures, drug usage reduced slightly. Other studies tend to show that there's very little correlation between penalties and prevalence of drug use (one of the references in TFA is http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/online/annual-report/2011/boxes/p45, suggesting increasing or reducing penalties for cannabis have basically no predictive power for the effect on usage rates)
So, I wasn't really remembering accurately but there's certainly no evidence that people will start using drugs in large numbers when they're legalised or decriminalised
Long-term effects of cannabis - Wikipedia
