The New PC: Populist Correctness
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@Yamikuronue said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
Forced cultural assimilation is bad, while mingling and cultural borrowing is good.
But you just said white people cannot culturally borrow dreadlocks
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@Onyx said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
I'm sad that it seems like we're trying to do the opposite these days - claim ownership of things rather than sharing them freely with the world, and using them to speak of their fascinating histories to people, rather than telling them they can't have it.
It's perfectly in line with what 20th century did to derivative works of art. Maybe banning some culture to some people is just a sign of times?
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@Yamikuronue said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
Fine. It's possible I misread his post. I took the part where he seemed uninformed about who was hurt by cultural appropriation to mean that he was uninformed, and attempted to inform him. I won't do that again.
Yes, I do not know who is hurt by cultural appropriation and why. Just like I don't know who is hurt by modern day Catholic Church and why. And my lack of knowledge on either subject doesn't come from lack of shoving butthurt people in my face so I can see them - it comes from seeing those people not as oppressed by respective forces, but as idiots who just can't get along with other people and just look for excuses to feel bad.
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@Gąska said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
It's perfectly in line with what 20th century did to derivative works of art.
Are you talking about DCMA crap? Well, eh, there's that, but then there's the invention of the sampler, which did the opposite.
Which gives me a chance to link this, which I think is both pertinent, and just cool at the same time:
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@Gąska said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
@Tsaukpaetra said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
@ben_lubar said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
@anonymous234 said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
@Dreikin Or "cutting your nose to spite the face".
Or "Hitler liked dogs, therefore dogs must be bad".
Damnit, why did the godwinning of a thread about nazis have to be about liking dogs?
Not sure, most dogs like it when I lick them...
You might like this:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1046165765/licki-brush-lick-your-cat
's not the same. Half the enjoyment is in the sensations!
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@antiquarian said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
At least you're not posting unfunny webcomics.
What if I post funny ones?
http://icse.cornell.edu/~jms875/comicjk/137.gif
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@Gąska said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
Yes, I do not know who is hurt by cultural appropriation and why. Just like I don't know who is hurt by modern day Catholic Church and why.
No one gets hurt by German press writing about Polish death camps, and yet that uproar is somehow justified.
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@Yamikuronue said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
I'm not sure we want a society where race isn't important.
I do.
Or rather, one of the things race stands for, which is to say, cultural differences, should absolutely continue to exist and be valued.
Screw cultures. We have too many.
Forced cultural assimilation is bad
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@Maciejasjmj said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
@Gąska said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
Yes, I do not know who is hurt by cultural appropriation and why. Just like I don't know who is hurt by modern day Catholic Church and why.
No one gets hurt by German press writing about Polish death camps, and yet that uproar is somehow justified.
I'm one of those people who believe the argument stands on its own merit, not on the reputation of the one saying it
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@Maciejasjmj said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
@Gąska said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
Yes, I do not know who is hurt by cultural appropriation and why. Just like I don't know who is hurt by modern day Catholic Church and why.
No one gets hurt by German press writing about Polish death camps, and yet that uproar is somehow justified.
I'm offended by liars. Saying that death camps were Polish in any way is a lie.
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@anonymous234 said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
unfunny webcomics
speaking of cultural appropriation, i think we can all agree that stifling cultural exchange in the name of appropriation is counterproductive. e.g. traditional kimono weavers trying to gain overseas business by letting people try on fancy kimonos at an American museum exhibit, only to have the exhibit shut down due to protests
i'd be happy if i saw people wearing a sherwani at a party and having fun
not so happy if they were wearing e.g. a hijab at a party. but why? i guess it's because something religious/important is trivialised. but then again, if we were all playing dress-up and decided to dress up according to each others' heritage then maybe not?
either way, i think the question of whether or not this sort of behaviour is acceptable differs depending on the person and is real nuanced. i have a circle of friends where one of my friend calls me an agent of isis and i call him a chink. we're both okay with it.
i don't think it's really feasible to come up with some sort of general rule for this stuff without annoying or angering people
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@anonymous234 said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
I do.
I dunno. On one hand diversity is good and a fully blended cookie cutter society w would be very boring to live in, on the other tying the culture to race and heritage and forbidding it to anyone not born in the right place seems arbitrary and exclusionist.
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@Gąska said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
@Maciejasjmj said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
@Gąska said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
Yes, I do not know who is hurt by cultural appropriation and why. Just like I don't know who is hurt by modern day Catholic Church and why.
No one gets hurt by German press writing about Polish death camps, and yet that uproar is somehow justified.
I'm offended by liars.
And yet you defend the Catholic Church
But on a more serious note - it offends you. Fine. So what? Why is you being offended more valid than @Yamikuronue being offended?
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@Gąska said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
I'm offended by liars. Saying that death camps were Polish in any way is a lie.
To my knowledge, the term "Polish concentration camp" never meant to imply that the Polish built it, but simply that it's located on Polish soil. If any reputable German newspaper ever claimed something else, please tell me, because I'd love to know.
To my knowledge, this whole ordeal was just people randomly misinterpreting stuff and getting butthurt about it, but feel free to provide sources that prove that was not the case.
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@Maciejasjmj said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
I dunno. On one hand diversity is good and a fully blended cookie cutter society w would be very boring to live in, on the other tying the culture to race and heritage and forbidding it to anyone not born in the right place seems arbitrary and exclusionist.
I think that you mostly see it as "out with the old, in with the new!". Personally, I don't. As long as you don't snuff out the old cultural bits on purpose, I don't think there's anything inherently bad in blending stuff.
To pull out the music thing again, I enjoy electro swing. I'm basically listening to music from the 1920s (or, composed using that style if it's not just a remix), almost 100 years later, just with an extra twist added to it. And I do go back and listen to original compositions from time to time, which I also enjoy most of the time.
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@asdf Which is usually the case when it comes to history. As soon as you even faintly imply that while, yes, they were conquered and oppressed, they also weren't as squeaky clean as they paint themselves the gloves come off. Even if it's just about listing historical facts and not about justifying or downplaying anything.
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@Rhywden
Yes, and it royally sucks that you still cannot have a conversation about antisemitism in the early 20th century as a German without being accused of justifying Hitler or downplaying the Holocaust.
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@Onyx said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
I think that you mostly see it as "out with the old, in with the new!". Personally, I don't. As long as you don't snuff out the old cultural bits on purpose, I don't think there's anything inherently bad in blending stuff.
To some extent, sure. But it also blurs the lines between the pretty varied cultural bits, making them less appealing as they grow less distinct and more similar to each other.
To borrow a musical example - would it be fun if metal, pop, rock, jazz and blues as distinct genres didn't exist, and all you could get was pop with maybe a little jazz or rock influence? Not really.
There's also the entire matter of people not wanting to let others just go ahead and grab any cultural bits and pieces of the place they were born and raised in since it's theirs and not free, but since I'm as cosmopolitan as it gets I'll let someone else take that argument up.
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@Maciejasjmj said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
To borrow a musical example - would it be fun if metal, pop, rock, jazz and blues as distinct genres didn't exist, and all you could get was pop with maybe a little jazz or rock influence? Not really.
But pop is what you will hear on 99% of all radio stations you may randomly tune into. And pop pretty much is the amalgamation of multiple genres, packaged in something most people will enjoy. But the genres that pop borrowed from are still there, nurtured by the communities that enjoy them, and available for anyone interested in taking the minimum effort required to find them.
That's basically where I'm going with the whole thing: as long as people are interested in aspects, or entirety, of a certain culture, it won't disappear. "Guarding" it by saying no one outside of that culture is allowed to touch some of its aspects is not something I see as a positive.
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@anonymous234 said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
Also, I feel like this comic fits here, because I've basically seen it happen a few times:
Here on these forums?
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@aliceif said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
The thing that disturbs me is how almost nobody in Germany talks about those kinds of topics, while it seems to be very common in the USA.
I would not say that it is "common" in the USA. It is just that those who complain about it are very loud.
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@Onyx said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
But pop is what you will hear on 99% of all radio stations you may randomly tune into.
I, for one, am not terribly happy about it.
@Onyx said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
And pop pretty much is the amalgamation of multiple genres, packaged in something most people will enjoy. But the genres that pop borrowed from are still there, nurtured by the communities that enjoy them, and available for anyone interested in taking the minimum effort required to find them.
For now, yes. But it does cannibalize the other genres and push them into relative obscurity, until they eventually become unsustainable and die out as genre-strict bands move to more unified sound because that's where people are, and people move in the same direction because it's getting harder and harder to find anything that's not pop.
@Onyx said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
That's basically where I'm going with the whole thing: as long as people are interested in aspects, or entirety, of a certain culture, it won't disappear.
But it will get shifted towards the common denominator, which in the end loses out on the diversity. Even if not completely, then at least partially.
@Onyx said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
"Guarding" it by saying no one outside of that culture is allowed to touch some of its aspects is not something I see as a positive.
We're in a sort-of violent agreement here, but I don't think it's as black-and-white as you do.
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@Yamikuronue said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
@aliceif Clearly your experience of having had your ancestors stolen from their culture, brought to a new country, given new names, forced to learn a new language, indoctrinated into a new religion, and then had their great-grandkids told "We let you go so it's all better now" trumps mine. To a lot of us, white dreads are a final "fuck you, even the little bit of your own culture you kept is mine now".
Dreadlocks started in India.
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@Maciejasjmj said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
stripper WW2 veteran
BRB, need to go do some "research". -unzips pants-
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@Polygeekery said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
@Maciejasjmj said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
stripper WW2 veteran
BRB, need to go do some "research". -unzips pants-
You do realize WW2 veterans are somewhere around 90 years old at this point.
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@Yamikuronue said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
Nigerian culture
A culture of trying to swindle gullible idiots?
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@Polygeekery said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
@Yamikuronue said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
Nigerian culture
A culture of trying to swindle gullible idiots?
Or a culture full of princes just waiting to get out with their massive fortunes.
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@Yamikuronue said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
Usually I see them in an entirely different subculture, one that basically mixes and matches various pieces from other ethnicities (kombucha, kimchee, dreadlocks, yoga) and claims to be more "spiritually enlightened" than the people they took the practices from, while doing nothing to help them with the racism they face.
Can you please clarify this?
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@Polygeekery said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
@Yamikuronue said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
Usually I see them in an entirely different subculture, one that basically mixes and matches various pieces from other ethnicities (kombucha, kimchee, dreadlocks, yoga) and claims to be more "spiritually enlightened" than the people they took the practices from, while doing nothing to help them with the racism they face.
Can you please clarify this?
I'm guessing all the New Age kind of crap. Not... exactly what I think about when I think "dreadlocks", to be honest.
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@Yamikuronue said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
"how do we make a post-racist culture that is diverse without being appropriative" and I'm struggling to do both at once.
You can't. As soon as you bring up "cultural appropriation", you are being racist and that is the opposite of diversity and inclusivity.
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@Maciejasjmj said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
I'm guessing all the New Age kind of crap. Not... exactly what I think about when I think "dreadlocks", to be honest.
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@Maciejasjmj said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
@Polygeekery said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
@Maciejasjmj said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
stripper WW2 veteran
BRB, need to go do some "research". -unzips pants-
You do realize WW2 veterans are somewhere around 90 years old at this point.
And?
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@e4tmyl33t said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
@Polygeekery said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
@Yamikuronue said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
Nigerian culture
A culture of trying to swindle gullible idiots?
Or a culture full of princes just waiting to get out with their massive fortunes.
That was the joke I wanted to make but couldn't word it correctly. Kudos.
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@Polygeekery said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
Can you please clarify this?
I would, but I'm told explaining things is racist.
I'm done participating in this thread. It's clear nobody is willing to assume good faith on my part, and that's a necessary prerequisite to having pretty much any conversation with me. Enjoy your facebook bubble.
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@Maciejasjmj said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
@Polygeekery said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
@Yamikuronue said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
Usually I see them in an entirely different subculture, one that basically mixes and matches various pieces from other ethnicities (kombucha, kimchee, dreadlocks, yoga) and claims to be more "spiritually enlightened" than the people they took the practices from, while doing nothing to help them with the racism they face.
Can you please clarify this?
I'm guessing all the New Age kind of crap. Not... exactly what I think about when I think "dreadlocks", to be honest.
That doesn't make it any better though. It sounds as though she is saying that you cannot eat kimchi unless you...I don't know? Somehow help that culture with racism?
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@Polygeekery said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
@Maciejasjmj said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
@Polygeekery said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
@Yamikuronue said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
Usually I see them in an entirely different subculture, one that basically mixes and matches various pieces from other ethnicities (kombucha, kimchee, dreadlocks, yoga) and claims to be more "spiritually enlightened" than the people they took the practices from, while doing nothing to help them with the racism they face.
Can you please clarify this?
I'm guessing all the New Age kind of crap. Not... exactly what I think about when I think "dreadlocks", to be honest.
That doesn't make it any better though. It sounds as though she is saying that you cannot eat kimchi unless you...I don't know? Somehow help that culture with racism?
I'm guessing the point is that New Age and such just scrape whatever's convenient off a bajillion of cultures and religions without really getting any deeper into them and understanding where they came from - things like yoga being just a hip way to do gymnastics instead of an introspective ritual, or blending taoism, Confucianism and Buddhism into a "kind of east-ish" belief system that really doesn't quite match either.
Which, admittedly, is kind of silly.
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@Yamikuronue said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
Enjoy your facebook bubble.
I am not even on Facebook. I avoid it like the plague.
I asked you to explain further so I did not go off half-cocked. I wanted an accurate representation of your ideas before commenting on them.
But...If your view is that people of X color cannot do Y, but people of Z color can, how is that not racist?
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@Maciejasjmj said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
@Gąska said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
@Maciejasjmj said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
@Gąska said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
Yes, I do not know who is hurt by cultural appropriation and why. Just like I don't know who is hurt by modern day Catholic Church and why.
No one gets hurt by German press writing about Polish death camps, and yet that uproar is somehow justified.
I'm offended by liars.
And yet you defend the Catholic Church
At least they're open with hating gays
@Maciejasjmj said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
But on a more serious note - it offends you. Fine. So what? Why is you being offended more valid than @Yamikuronue being offended?
As far as I know, lying is universally accepted as morally wrong. I can't imagine someone telling me that lying is generally a good thing and we shouldn't be so harsh to liars. Cultural appropriation has a long way to reach that level. As of now, they're more akin to vegan crusaders who violently fight against meat eaters.
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@anonymous234 said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
What if I post funny ones?
OK, when can you start?
@Maciejasjmj said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
it's getting harder and harder to find anything that's not pop.
In my experience it's getting easier. All you have to do is find one band and put it on Spotify or Pandora. Either place will play a bunch of similar song. I've found a few bands that way.
@Yamikuronue said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
nobody is willing to assume good faith on my part
That's a two-way street. You never did answer my question:
Have you considered that people know why cultural appropriation makes some people upset but don't agree with the reasons?
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@Gąska said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
As far as I know, lying is universally accepted as morally wrong. I can't imagine someone telling me that lying is generally a good thing and we shouldn't be so harsh to liars. Cultural appropriation has a long way to reach that level. As of now, they're more akin to vegan crusaders who violently fight against meat eaters.
And it offends you. On a personal level. And yet you cannot comprehend that someone might be offended exactly the same by something that might not be universal.
The lack of consensus over whether something is wrong doesn't mean it's less wrong to someone who does believe it is. Stealing a wallet is agreed on to be wrong much more than abortion, but someone who believes abortion is wrong will generally put it higher on the list than stealing a wallet.
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@antiquarian said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
In my experience it's getting easier. All you have to do is find one band and put it on Spotify or Pandora. Either place will play a bunch of similar song. I've found a few bands that way.
Yes, but that requires involvement. If you just listen to whatever's on the radio, TV or in the ads, you're pretty much exposed to pop and maybe some white-guy-with-acoustic-guitar music.
It's easier to expand your musical interests, but it's generally harder to actually get them started.
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@Maciejasjmj said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
some white-guy-with-acoustic-guitar music.
Ugh. That is worse than pop music. Pop music becomes white noise to me.
@Maciejasjmj said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
some white-guy-with-acoustic-guitar music.
Visibly annoys me. I have a visceral hatred of it.
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@asdf said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
To my knowledge, the term "Polish concentration camp" never meant to imply that the Polish built it, but simply that it's located on Polish soil.
Which is a lie too, because it wasn't really Polish soil during WW2.
@asdf said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
If any reputable German newspaper ever claimed something else, please tell me, because I'd love to know.
Does German-owned Polish-language newspaper count? Because recently I've seen an article in German-owned Polish-language newspaper how Polish death camps were truly Polish (as in established and administered directly by Polish govt), referring to how Polish People's Republic adapted them to their own goals.
@asdf said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
To my knowledge, this whole ordeal was just people randomly misinterpreting stuff and getting butthurt about it, but feel free to provide sources that prove that was not the case.
If you say something in a way that's way easier to interpret wrong than to interpret right, and then outrage arises because people kept interpreting it wrong, it's your damn fault and you deserve everything you get. There's nothing in the words "Polish death camps" that implies anything else than Polish. It's like Trump saying "Mexico will pay for the wall" and then claiming he didn't mean Mexico should fund building the wall. Maybe he really didn't, but he said what he said.
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@Gąska said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
Which is a lie too, because it wasn't really Polish soil during WW2.
By that logic Mickiewicz and Słowacki weren't Polish either
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@Maciejasjmj people aren't buildings.
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@Gąska said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
Does German-owned Polish-language newspaper count? Because recently I've seen an article in German-owned Polish-language newspaper how Polish death camps were truly Polish (as in established and administered directly by Polish govt), referring to how Polish People's Republic adapted them to their own goals.
Then it shouldn't be too hard to post a link if it was recently.
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@Gąska said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
@Maciejasjmj people aren't buildings.
So it's okay if they just claim they identify as Polish?
Filed under: en route to the Trolleybus Garage, full steam ahead
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@Maciejasjmj said in The New PC: Populist Correctness:
If you just listen to whatever's on the radio, TV or in the ads, you're pretty much exposed to pop and maybe some white-guy-with-acoustic-guitar music.
Meh. If you're willing to just listen to the radio and not willing to put forth any effort to explore alternatives, you deserve what you get.
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@Rhywden you'd be surprised how hard it is to comb through four months of articles on a very controversial topic.
Five minutes in, and I only found an article debunking the one I was talking about. http://opinie.wp.pl/marcin-makowski-polskie-obozy-koncentracyjne-po-wojnie-czyli-cyniczna-zabawa-historia-6082977260069505a
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