BAs are harder than BScs (:giggity:)
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@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):I blame it entirely on me being completely devoid of social skills
It can also depend, at least in part, on where you go to uni. It's easier to avoid making friends at a commuter school, i.e., one in an urban or suburban area, where most students live off-campus and just show up for classes, than one in a smaller town where there is little or nothing to do that doesn't involve your fellow students. It's probably still possible to avoid making friends, but it's more of a challenge.
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@HardwareGeek said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):I blame it entirely on me being completely devoid of social skills
It can also depend, at least in part, on where you go to uni. It's easier to avoid making friends at a commuter school, i.e., one in an urban or suburban area, where most students live off-campus and just show up for classes, than one in a smaller town where there is little or nothing to do that doesn't involve your fellow students. It's probably still possible to avoid making friends, but it's more of a challenge.
Smack dab in the middle of Munich. So no, not a smaller town by any stretch of the imagination.
And I lived quite a bit outside of Munich and had (still don't have) my own personal means of transportation (well I used my dad's motorcycle some times but still), which also limits social interaction a bit. Still, knowing myself, even if I had lived closer I probably wouldn't have been able to socialize any better.
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@Maciejasjmj said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):but
asat least we can use the right to, two, too in context.But did your high school english class teach you about irony?
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@Fox said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Maciejasjmj said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):but
asat least we can use the right to, two, too in context.But did your high school english class teach you about irony?
Yes, and that's not it.
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@Maciejasjmj said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Fox said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Maciejasjmj said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):but
asat least we can use the right to, two, too in context.But did your high school english class teach you about irony?
Yes, and that's not it.
Someone bragging about knowing homophones using the flat out wrong word in the same sentence is, in fact, irony.
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@Fox said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):Someone bragging about knowing homophones using the flat out wrong word in the same sentence is, in fact, irony.
As much as it pains me to agree with
, this is one of the very rare cases in which he's right.
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@dkf If it's any consolation... I know where to get "answer keys" for most popular exams :) Even if they aren't 100%, it's pretty much a given that a large percentage of the answers are spot on... and then its just taking what I know and filling in the rough spots.
Linux+ was like that. I knew 75-80% of it... but have never really used fringe elements - like printing on Linux. Just not something i used in my professional environments.
It's one reason I particularly don't trust the results of tests. Too easy to game the system and not know.
That, and I've personally worked with people who passed the tests in school and aren't... knowledgeable... about technology. For example... Me. I can pass JavaScript tests with a little bit of practice... but I use it so irregularly that I get lost when coding on the front end (Although, that's my goal this year. ACTUALLY become proficient in Javascript... and AngularJS.)
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@WernerCD said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):I know where to get "answer keys" for most popular exams :)
That's why examiners change exams regularly. Or it's a mega-WTF if they don't.
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@MathNerdCNU said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):Yeah, but what about people who have a BA in Mathematics?
I have a BA in CS (a few years after I graduated, it was moved into the engineering program)
edit: with a math minor
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@boomzilla said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):There is a theme running through this that humanities students have no friends and never socialize but STEM students have tons of friends and go out and party a lot.
I'm special and you're not.
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@boomzilla said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):I dunnno...probably a victim of Poe's law, but I found this hilarious:
It's time to accept that BAs are significantly harder than BScs
Just because you can balance equations doesn't mean you can write a sentence, hun
There is a theme running through this that humanities students have no friends and never socialize but STEM students have tons of friends and go out and party a lot.
To be fair, I had a class where the teacher judged us on coding
patternsstyle, and it was about as difficult as my English 101 where the teacher couldn't actually tell me how to fix my essay, but it's just wrong... because squints it doesn't look balanced.
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@xaade my Advanced OOP teacher gave away points for style too - except it was more about following a coding convention to the t, with fixed values for particular misdeeds.
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Well, if the BSc is having trouble being hard enough, maybe the BA needs to buy a toy to fill that gap.
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@xaade said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):To be fair, I had a class where the teacher judged us on coding
patternsstyle, and it was about as difficult as my English 101 where the teacher couldn't actually tell me how to fix my essay, but it's just wrong... because squints it doesn't look balanced.Funny you compare it with English writing skills.
Like 10 years ago, we've had another discussion that someone claims the common believe that "it's more difficult to read than rewrite" is because reading long convoluted passage in a different language is an "Arts" trait rather than "Science" trait, so we need more "Arts" students to study computer programming.
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@cheong said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):Like 10 years ago, we've had another discussion that someone claims the common believe that "it's more difficult to read than rewrite" is because reading long convoluted passage in a different language is an "Arts" trait rather than "Science" trait, so we need more "Arts" students to study computer programming.
No, that would encourage producing code with excessive complexity.
There may be a point in systems that need code complexity to create system simplicity. We call this "arcane" code.
But now that uncompiled code file size isn't as much of an issue, comments can fill that gap.
Besides, reading has an objective goal, with benchmarks, which encompass understanding. Actually writing the essays, not as much. Whereas writing code has those pesky objective goals again.
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@xaade said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@cheong said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):Like 10 years ago, we've had another discussion that someone claims the common believe that "it's more difficult to read than rewrite" is because reading long convoluted passage in a different language is an "Arts" trait rather than "Science" trait, so we need more "Arts" students to study computer programming.
No, that would encourage producing code with excessive complexity.
There may be a point in systems that need code complexity to create system simplicity. We call this "arcane" code.
But now that uncompiled code file size isn't as much of an issue, comments can fill that gap.
Besides, reading has an objective goal, with benchmarks, which encompass understanding. Actually writing the essays, not as much. Whereas writing code has those pesky objective goals again.
But they could be good companion to work with seasoned developer to recover the logic from old code for that developer to rewrite, therefore making sure all corner cases that coded to handle in the old code base got their counterparts recreated on the new code if applicable. Even have them help create unit tests for these "must handle" corner cases would be good enough.
For a lot of old systems where the original developers have gone or retired and all the works are essentially black box except you have the source code, such help can reduce the "try and error" involved when trying to recreate the functionalities.
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@cheong said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):But they could be good companion to work with seasoned developer to recover the logic from old code for that developer to rewrite, therefore making sure all corner cases that coded to handle in the old code base got their counterparts recreated on the new code if applicable. Even have them help create unit tests for these "must handle" corner cases would be good enough.
That's called a code analyst, and yes, they tend to be more inclined in that manner. In fact, there is a certain degree of art to programming.
@cheong said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):For a lot of old systems where the original developers have gone or retired and all the works are essentially black box except you have the source code, such help can reduce the "try and error" involved when trying to recreate the functionalities.
It's a temporary job though. Much better to be inclined to that skill but still be a disciplined programmer. It's a difficult life. We all want to express ourselves in our code, if not our product design, but that can backfire. Like the invention of UX... gag
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When I decided to learn programming, I was about to go to University and everyone kept asking me what I wanted to do. I basically knew it'd be Computer Science or English: I wanted to make things out of words. I went with programming because I felt I could make more exciting things and get paid better, but I still feel a need to write things on occasion.
For someone to write an article like this, they'd have to be incapable of believing I could possibly exist. Which means we definitely still have a long way to go when it comes to communicating what it is work in our field involves.
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@dcon said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):I have a BA in CS (a few years after I graduated, it was moved into the engineering program)
I know places where graduates of the engineering program get a BA or MA.
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@MathNerdCNU said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):Yeah, but what about people who have a BA in Mathematics?
Yeah, all two of us.
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@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):Smack dab in the middle of Munich. So no, not a smaller town by any stretch of the imagination.
You should have come to Germany, we are way more friendly!
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@Rhywden Mind you, I wouldn't get this if I hadn't already come across the "Bavaria is to Germany as Texas is to the USA" analogy (that is, it's a big state that was independent at one time, has its own customs, foods, liquor, accents, and most of the natives think it is more important than the rest of the country combined). Apparently, the same analogy applies to Kansai Prefecture in Japan, though of course Kansai is a much smaller part of the country in terms of sheer acreage than Bavaria or Texas.
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@MathNerdCNU said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Captain
http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/dozens_of_us_arrested_development.gifIs that a corn-dog?
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@dkf said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):I've found that being good at communicating, both with the written and the spoken word, helps a lot in
a STEM careerabsolutely everything you will ever do ever.
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@Rhywden said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):Smack dab in the middle of Munich. So no, not a smaller town by any stretch of the imagination.
You should have come to Germany, we are way more friendly!
But I don't even know the language
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@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Rhywden said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):Smack dab in the middle of Munich. So no, not a smaller town by any stretch of the imagination.
You should have come to Germany, we are way more friendly!
But I don't even know the language
Just talk in Maths, the universal language!
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@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Rhywden said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):Smack dab in the middle of Munich. So no, not a smaller town by any stretch of the imagination.
You should have come to Germany, we are way more friendly!
But I don't even know the language
Just talk in Maths, the universal language!
Unfortunately, so far, I haven't been able to find a "Maths <-> Everyday Necessary Conversation"-Dictionary... I mean how would you order e.g. a coffee in Maths? (Especially hard if you haven't had your morning coffee yet XD)
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@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Rhywden said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):Smack dab in the middle of Munich. So no, not a smaller town by any stretch of the imagination.
You should have come to Germany, we are way more friendly!
But I don't even know the language
Just talk in Maths, the universal language!
Unfortunately, so far, I haven't been able to find a "Maths <-> Everyday Necessary Conversation"-Dictionary... I mean how would you order e.g. a coffee in Maths? (Especially hard if you haven't had your morning coffee yet XD)
And now you know one of my personal peeves with the idea that sending maths into space means any aliens will understand and respond to it.
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@dkf said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@WernerCD said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):I know where to get "answer keys" for most popular exams :)
That's why examiners change exams regularly. Or it's a mega-WTF if they don't.
Depends on the exams... I've taken enough through exams through multiple providers I can say it's a mixed. Good enough keys exist to cover a majority of questions on a majority of the tests I've taken (largely CompTia but I've done plenty of others).
There ARE tests that involve simulated environments, fill in the blanks, questions not in answer keys provided, etc... stuff not available or possible in PDFs. But enough of the info is there to make test taking trivial in a non-trivial amount of tests.
Just my experience... and why Certifications should be taken with a grain of salt.
-Chris
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@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Rhywden said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):Smack dab in the middle of Munich. So no, not a smaller town by any stretch of the imagination.
You should have come to Germany, we are way more friendly!
But I don't even know the language
Just talk in Maths, the universal language!
Unfortunately, so far, I haven't been able to find a "Maths <-> Everyday Necessary Conversation"-Dictionary... I mean how would you order e.g. a coffee in Maths? (Especially hard if you haven't had your morning coffee yet XD)
And now you know one of my personal peeves with the idea that sending maths into space means any aliens will understand and respond to it.
Why is that a personal peeve?
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@boomzilla said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Rhywden said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):Smack dab in the middle of Munich. So no, not a smaller town by any stretch of the imagination.
You should have come to Germany, we are way more friendly!
But I don't even know the language
Just talk in Maths, the universal language!
Unfortunately, so far, I haven't been able to find a "Maths <-> Everyday Necessary Conversation"-Dictionary... I mean how would you order e.g. a coffee in Maths? (Especially hard if you haven't had your morning coffee yet XD)
And now you know one of my personal peeves with the idea that sending maths into space means any aliens will understand and respond to it.
Why is that a personal peeve?
249*10 6^2 0_2898 18 838 16696 ? 49 91000-9
-
@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@boomzilla said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Rhywden said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):Smack dab in the middle of Munich. So no, not a smaller town by any stretch of the imagination.
You should have come to Germany, we are way more friendly!
But I don't even know the language
Just talk in Maths, the universal language!
Unfortunately, so far, I haven't been able to find a "Maths <-> Everyday Necessary Conversation"-Dictionary... I mean how would you order e.g. a coffee in Maths? (Especially hard if you haven't had your morning coffee yet XD)
And now you know one of my personal peeves with the idea that sending maths into space means any aliens will understand and respond to it.
Why is that a personal peeve?
249*10 6^2 0_2898 18 838 16696 ? 49 91000-9
This is worse than a @ben_lubar non-answer.
-
@boomzilla said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@boomzilla said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Rhywden said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):Smack dab in the middle of Munich. So no, not a smaller town by any stretch of the imagination.
You should have come to Germany, we are way more friendly!
But I don't even know the language
Just talk in Maths, the universal language!
Unfortunately, so far, I haven't been able to find a "Maths <-> Everyday Necessary Conversation"-Dictionary... I mean how would you order e.g. a coffee in Maths? (Especially hard if you haven't had your morning coffee yet XD)
And now you know one of my personal peeves with the idea that sending maths into space means any aliens will understand and respond to it.
Why is that a personal peeve?
249*10 6^2 0_2898 18 838 16696 ? 49 91000-9
This is worse than a @ben_lubar non-answer.
So, the communications was a success then?
-
@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@boomzilla said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@boomzilla said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Rhywden said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):Smack dab in the middle of Munich. So no, not a smaller town by any stretch of the imagination.
You should have come to Germany, we are way more friendly!
But I don't even know the language
Just talk in Maths, the universal language!
Unfortunately, so far, I haven't been able to find a "Maths <-> Everyday Necessary Conversation"-Dictionary... I mean how would you order e.g. a coffee in Maths? (Especially hard if you haven't had your morning coffee yet XD)
And now you know one of my personal peeves with the idea that sending maths into space means any aliens will understand and respond to it.
Why is that a personal peeve?
249*10 6^2 0_2898 18 838 16696 ? 49 91000-9
This is worse than a @ben_lubar non-answer.
So, the communications was a success then?
It sounds like you probably have a strawman idea about what sort of math gets sent out and why it's sent out. So...maybe?
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@boomzilla said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@boomzilla said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Rhywden said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):Smack dab in the middle of Munich. So no, not a smaller town by any stretch of the imagination.
You should have come to Germany, we are way more friendly!
But I don't even know the language
Just talk in Maths, the universal language!
Unfortunately, so far, I haven't been able to find a "Maths <-> Everyday Necessary Conversation"-Dictionary... I mean how would you order e.g. a coffee in Maths? (Especially hard if you haven't had your morning coffee yet XD)
And now you know one of my personal peeves with the idea that sending maths into space means any aliens will understand and respond to it.
Why is that a personal peeve?
249*10 6^2 0_2898 18 838 16696 ? 49 91000-9
This is worse than a @ben_lubar non-answer.
-
@Lorne-Kates said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@boomzilla said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@boomzilla said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Rhywden said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):Smack dab in the middle of Munich. So no, not a smaller town by any stretch of the imagination.
You should have come to Germany, we are way more friendly!
But I don't even know the language
Just talk in Maths, the universal language!
Unfortunately, so far, I haven't been able to find a "Maths <-> Everyday Necessary Conversation"-Dictionary... I mean how would you order e.g. a coffee in Maths? (Especially hard if you haven't had your morning coffee yet XD)
And now you know one of my personal peeves with the idea that sending maths into space means any aliens will understand and respond to it.
Why is that a personal peeve?
249*10 6^2 0_2898 18 838 16696 ? 49 91000-9
This is worse than a @ben_lubar non-answer.
Nailed it.
-
@boomzilla said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Lorne-Kates said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@boomzilla said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@boomzilla said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Rhywden said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):Smack dab in the middle of Munich. So no, not a smaller town by any stretch of the imagination.
You should have come to Germany, we are way more friendly!
But I don't even know the language
Just talk in Maths, the universal language!
Unfortunately, so far, I haven't been able to find a "Maths <-> Everyday Necessary Conversation"-Dictionary... I mean how would you order e.g. a coffee in Maths? (Especially hard if you haven't had your morning coffee yet XD)
And now you know one of my personal peeves with the idea that sending maths into space means any aliens will understand and respond to it.
Why is that a personal peeve?
249*10 6^2 0_2898 18 838 16696 ? 49 91000-9
This is worse than a @ben_lubar non-answer.
Nailed it.
Nah, it's not a tall enough image.
-
@ben_lubar said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@boomzilla said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Lorne-Kates said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@boomzilla said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@boomzilla said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Rhywden said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):Smack dab in the middle of Munich. So no, not a smaller town by any stretch of the imagination.
You should have come to Germany, we are way more friendly!
But I don't even know the language
Just talk in Maths, the universal language!
Unfortunately, so far, I haven't been able to find a "Maths <-> Everyday Necessary Conversation"-Dictionary... I mean how would you order e.g. a coffee in Maths? (Especially hard if you haven't had your morning coffee yet XD)
And now you know one of my personal peeves with the idea that sending maths into space means any aliens will understand and respond to it.
Why is that a personal peeve?
249*10 6^2 0_2898 18 838 16696 ? 49 91000-9
This is worse than a @ben_lubar non-answer.
Nailed it.
Nah, it's not a tall enough image.
-
@Luhmann
Should have used fa_spin ... :d'oh:
-
-
@boomzilla said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@boomzilla said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@boomzilla said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Tsaukpaetra said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Rhywden said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Akko said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):Smack dab in the middle of Munich. So no, not a smaller town by any stretch of the imagination.
You should have come to Germany, we are way more friendly!
But I don't even know the language
Just talk in Maths, the universal language!
Unfortunately, so far, I haven't been able to find a "Maths <-> Everyday Necessary Conversation"-Dictionary... I mean how would you order e.g. a coffee in Maths? (Especially hard if you haven't had your morning coffee yet XD)
And now you know one of my personal peeves with the idea that sending maths into space means any aliens will understand and respond to it.
Why is that a personal peeve?
249*10 6^2 0_2898 18 838 16696 ? 49 91000-9
This is worse than a @ben_lubar non-answer.
So, the communications was a success then?
It sounds like you probably have a strawman idea about what sort of math gets sent out and why it's sent out. So...maybe?
Prime number strings, digits of pi, logic trees and other math proofs, encoded data (such as the human genome), and other such nonsense.
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@Fox Hmmmn, I wonder... checks yeah, they have foxes, at least two of them in fact (the "Kit Fox" and "Boxy the Fox" models under "Silicon Toys ->Canine Toys").
-
-
@heterodox I am a Fox and I'm digging a hole...
Filed Under: Of course, I dig holes too... just love all kinds of holes, in fact.
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@ScholRLEA said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):yeah, they have foxes
There are some sorts of information that one is better off not knowing. This whole discussion falls into that category.
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@HardwareGeek said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):There are some sorts of information that one is better off not knowing. This whole discussion falls into that category.
I myself have a morbid sense of curiosity (the kind that's dangerous on the Internet) so I had to check it out once I was off VPN. Have to say I enjoyed the "Slip Knot" pun at the least.
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@Tsaukpaetra It's more of a 'Hey, check this out, this message can't be random, see? See, we sent you specific sequences, aren't we super-duper smart and such? So you should like, totally come talk to us?'
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@HardwareGeek said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):There are some sorts of information that one is better off not knowing. This whole discussion falls into that category.
It can't really be that bad, can it? Kink is just kink. Of course I'm not going to check because I'm at work and I'm pretty sure that's not even nearly SFW unless you work in a porn shop, and even then only if your porn shop specialises in kink.
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@ScholRLEA said in BAs are harder than BScs (
):@Fox Hmmmn, I wonder... checks yeah, they have foxes, at least two of them in fact (the "Kit Fox" and "Boxy the Fox" models under "Silicon Toys ->Canine Toys").
*has the Kit Fox*
