Skype Call vs. Windows Update
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Just as I was about to have an important Skype call, I noticed my internet went to shit. Now, this being Australia, that in itself is not very surprising. Let's go through the motions... Hm, I'm not downloading anything, Steam isn't running... Could it be Telstra being shit as per usual? Let's check the task manager... oh, what's this, Windows Update downloading 2.5 Mbps, pretty much 100% of what my ADSL connection is capable of at this time of day? That's not very good, I should pause that!
But wait, there is no pause button anymore, it's been removed! I guess Microsoft knows better than I do when I want to use my internet connection. Basically the only option to gain control over my own computer is to lie to it and tell it I'm on a metered connection... What the fuck...
Supposedly you can limit the bandwidth using a group policy - which I'm going to try now - but that does not excuse the lack of a fucking pause button.
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@Deadfast Aren't those downloads supposed to be low-priority by default, so skype takes precedence? Not that I'm saying that works...
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@PleegWat That doesn't do shit. That's the reason why almost all programs that do large downloads (Steam, BitTorrent, etc) have built-in rate limiters.
But hey, we've only had the Internet for about 38 years. And it's not like resiliance to congestion was one of the main design goals or anything. So maybe by 2054 those ultra-smart geniuses that design network protocols will have figured out how to let one process download stuff at full speed without affecting your home's entire connection.
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in my daily workflow is clicking the check for updates during a suitable moment/lunch.
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@PleegWat said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
@Deadfast Aren't those downloads supposed to be low-priority by default, so skype takes precedence? Not that I'm saying that works...
Well, I guess just because you call something the "Background Intelligent Transfer Service" doesn't necessarily mean it's intelligent in practice since it sure as hell doesn't work that way.
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@Deadfast said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
"Background Intelligent Transfer Service"
Smells like a backronym anyway.
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@anonymous234 said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
But hey, we've only had the Internet for about 38 years. And it's not like resiliance to congestion was one of the main design goals or anything. So maybe by 2054 those ultra-smart geniuses that design network protocols will have figured out how to let one process download stuff at full speed without affecting your home's entire connection.
Sure, it was designed to be / has evolved to be resilient to congestion, but that's talking about congestion inside the (inter)network. It says nothing about what happens inside hosts. (And there are mechanisms to "tag" packets as being high or low priority. The Internet doesn't necessarily respect those mechanisms, but they do exist.)
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
but that's talking about congestion inside the (inter)network. It says nothing about what happens inside hosts
I don't think the problem comes from inside the host. The host-router connection is most likely much faster than the router-internet connection. And if not just try downloading a bunch of files (with enough seeds) through bittorrent and disable throttling, most routers will end up locking up.
So it seems to me the router must be doing something wrong if a single host can trivially DoS it.
Besides, if there's an algorithm to handle congestion coming from two different hosts, it should be trivial to apply it in the computer (at network driver level) treating different processes as independent hosts.
Also, TCP over mobile. Has that been fixed yet?
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@anonymous234 said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
I don't think the problem comes from inside the host.
That's because you haven't thought enough about the implications of the name "Background Intelligent Transfer Service".
Intelligent, in MS terms, doesn't mean "clever" or "appropriate" or "helpful". It means "uses up a fuckload of CPU".
Also, although "Background" is clearly supposed to suggest that BITS only does transfers when your network isn't busy doing other stuff, all that means is that BITS traffic is really bursty. This badly fucks up anything requiring something approximating predictable latency.
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Nah. See, responsible people take care of their computers instead of playing those dreadful silly video games like Skype. So it was in fact your fault.
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@Deadfast said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
Basically the only option to gain control over my own computer is to lie to it and tell it I'm on a metered connection...
Oh, you're on WiFi? Lucky bastard. You know those mobile network USB dongles? The one you put a SIM card in and then pay a premium per MB of bandwidth? The ones that Windows sees as a "modem connection".
Yeah, those can't be set up as metered. Fuck you.
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@Onyx said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
Yeah, those can't be set up as metered. Fuck you.
This any use? Not that the onebox gives any indication of what it's talking about of course...
Ethernet Connection - Set as Metered or Unmetered in Windows 10
Set Ethernet Connection as Metered or Unmetered in Windows 10
How to Set Ethernet Connection as Metered or Non-Metered in Windows 10
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@PJH That's the nice thing about Windows, compared to Linux: there's a nice straightforward GUI for everything and you never have to faff about with the kind of complicated under-the-hood shenanigans that frighten ordinary users.
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@PJH I tried a bunch of registry hacks, group policy, magic incantations and throwing the machine into negative space. All I managed to get is Windows update settings screen showing me the download button instead of downloading automatically, apparently, but resource monitor was still showing some service or another downloading shut from a Redmond IP. The only thing that eventually worked was setting Windows update service to disabled and rebooting...
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@Onyx That's pretty
y. So they added a feature, but only enabled on the particular case that happens to be most common (WiFi tethering)? Well, I guess that's how things are done today 
.Maybe you can make a virtual ethernet adapter, then route the connection over it, and set it as metered?
Or just disable the Windows update service. Maybe make a script to temporarily re-enable it under certain conditions.
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@anonymous234 said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
Maybe you can make a virtual ethernet adapter, then route the connection over it, and set it as metered?
Windows 7 PC with the dongle. Updates disabled. Share the network via wifi, set as metered connection on the Win10 machine
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@Jaloopa said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
Windows 7 PC with the dongle. Updates disabled. Share the network via wifi, set as metered connection on the Win10 machine
A solution that doesn't involve "buy another machine" as a step is preferable... :P
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@Onyx
What, doesn't everyone have 3 old computers sitting around from their upgrades over that past 5 years? That's perfectly normal, right? Right?!?!?
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@anonymous234 said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
Also, TCP over mobile. Has that been fixed yet?
Huh. +1 interesting, would read again
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@Jaloopa said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
Windows 7 PC with the dongle. Updates disabled. Share the network via wifi, set as metered connection on the Win10 machine
So, Windows 10 is great, as long as you keep a Windows 7 PC to go with it ?
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@TimeBandit 10 works fine for me, but this metered connection thing is pretty badly implemented
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@flabdablet said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
@PJH That's the nice thing about Windows, compared to Linux: there's a nice straightforward GUI for everything and you never have to faff about with the kind of complicated under-the-hood shenanigans that frighten ordinary users.
Linux got this nice GUI also
Wine's RegEdit
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@Onyx In all seriousness though, it might actually be the easiest way. There are millions of old 3G phones around that you could use for that, you can probably find one for $20 and just leave it plugged in to the charger.
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@TimeBandit Linux actually DOES have a "regedit" of its own.
It's a part of GNOME called Dconf, and it's basically 90% identical to Windows' registry, complete with a dconf-editor.
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@anonymous234 said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
@TimeBandit Linux actually DOES have a "regedit" of its own.
It's a part of GNOME called Dconf, and it's basically 90% identical to Windows' registry, complete with a dconf-editor.
Let me get this straight: GNOME devs keep saying that users are too stupid to have configurable things, they remove almost every options in the control panel, programs, etc...
And then they make a registry editor to edit your preferences ???
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@TimeBandit Yup, they started removing stuff, changing everything for no clear reason, added a completely dysfunctional full-screen start menu, claimed it was the best thing to ever, refused to take any criticism, lost most of their users, then finally fixed the most egregious flaws and begged people to come back... sounds familiar?
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@anonymous234 said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
@TimeBandit Yup, they started removing stuff, changing everything for no clear reason, added a completely dysfunctional full-screen start menu, claimed it was the best thing to ever, refused to take any criticism, lost most of their users, then finally fixed the most egregious flaws and begged people to come back... sounds familiar?
Then they got hired by Micro-Soft ?
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@TimeBandit said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
Linux got this nice GUI also
At last!?
Could this be the Year of Linux on the Desktop!?
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@flabdablet said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
Could this be the Year of Linux on the Desktop!?
That year was at least 5 years ago for me
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@flabdablet said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
Year of Linux on the Desktop!?
I'd use it on my desktop but video games. My laptop's been running it for a while though.
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@flabdablet said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
At last!?
gconftool/dconftool have been around for freaking ages. I used gconftool on Gnome2 back in 2006, and it wasn't a new thing at the time AFAIK. What rock have you guys been living under?
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@Onyx said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
What rock have you guys been living under?
The best one: KDE
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@TimeBandit said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
@Onyx said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
What rock have you guys been living under?
The best one: KDE
I'd snark but... Fuck you for being right!
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@Onyx said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
I used gconftool on Gnome2 back in 2006, and it wasn't a new thing at the time AFAIK.
Ah, but dconf is not gconf. This is GNOME! We don't "backward compatible" here.
Gconf, Dconf, Gsettings and the relationship between them
I'm trying to understand how Gconf, Dconf and Gsettings works and what the relationship is between them. All I know is: Gconf - XML based database (backend system). The older one. Dconf - BLOB ba...
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I found out today that a warehouse was down for 2 hours when we tested Windows 10 by adding a Win10 machine to their network. As soon as the technician left, 8 hours into the pilot, it started downloading 5 updates straight from microsoft and saturated the network. They had to unplug the machine.
(They later figured out the right settings to prevent that and went ahead with the pilot)
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I was on a Skype call with my mother last night that got interrupted because Windows Updates rebooted her PC right in the middle of a Skype call.
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@Yamikuronue said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
I found out today that a warehouse was down for 2 hours when we tested Windows 10 by adding a Win10 machine to their network. As soon as the technician left, 8 hours into the pilot, it started downloading 5 updates straight from microsoft and saturated the network. They had to unplug the machine.
Sounds like IT fucked up.
(They later figured out the right settings to prevent that and went ahead with the pilot)
Yup.
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@Deadfast You didn't explicitly state this was Windows 10, but I'm going to assume it is. But still hedge my bets.
(Alleged) idiot.
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@Yamikuronue The good news is, Windows 10 comes with built-in P2P update sharing, so even if that happens it only happens once!
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@anonymous234 said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
Steam, BitTorrent, etc
Web browsers have a rate limiter ("emulate connection speed" in developer tools). I've used Chrome's to rate limit a YouTube upload.
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@ben_lubar said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
I've used Chrome's to rate limit a YouTube upload.
I thought your ISP took care of that ?
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@flabdablet said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
you never have to faff about [in Windows] with the kind of complicated under-the-hood shenanigans that frighten ordinary users.
That made me LOL.
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@TimeBandit said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
@ben_lubar said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
I've used Chrome's to rate limit a YouTube upload.
I thought your ISP took care of that ?
They like to prioritize YouTube uploads over less important things like communication software and DNS.
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Ah, but Skype is actually low-bandwidth. I'd not be surprised at all if BITS only backs off for high-bandwidth requests, i.e. when the 300k of minified gzipped gruntgulped JS tangle the fad framework of the day produces is downloaded, it will throw BITS into "oh, there's big downloads, better stop doing anything for ten minutes" mode.
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@Deadfast Sounds like you should adjust your Active Hours then.
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@cheong said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
@Deadfast Sounds like you should adjust your Active Hours then.
Until Windows Update decides to ignore that setting for whatever
dumbIntelligentâ„¢ reason.
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@uschwarz said in Skype Call vs. Windows Update:
Ah, but Skype is actually low-bandwidth. I'd not be surprised at all if BITS only backs off for high-bandwidth requests, i.e. when the 300k of minified gzipped gruntgulped JS tangle the fad framework of the day produces is downloaded, it will throw BITS into "oh, there's big downloads, better stop doing anything for ten minutes" mode.
Because Skype uses UDP to transfer voice data, if your boardband router/hubs supports QOS, the Windows Update download which uses TCP will gain priority and can probably suck up all the bandwidth.
