@sam said:
Please, none of this crap,
What crap? Compare the quotes of you and him that I juxtaposed in the post you replied to. I wasn't trying to troll btw.
You straight out said that you (plural) take responsability for Discourse's problems. Jeff never said that, he just keeps repeating that it's the upstream that needs to be fixed in order for Discourse to be performant on mobile and we'll have to wait for an updated Chrome, wait for Ember.js updates, ... if we want to have an acceptable Discourse experience.
TTBOMK he never once said that CDCK should make an effort to fix/workaround those problems, but there are plenty of times where he was very quick to point out that it's the 3rd party software you're using that needs to be fixed.
@sam said:
Jeff is the product manager, its his role to make a lot of the very hard decisions that someone ultimately needs to make otherwise you have a product with no heart and 100 managers. Its his job to make sure the ship is steering in the right direction. Its his job to push back when needed.
I get all that. You can't make everyone happy, difficult decisions need to be made, someone needs to keep the bigger picture in mind instead of making decisions that look good in the short term, but might cause problems in the longer term.
I'm not arguing that it's a shitty but necessary job. I'm not going to second-guess the decisions he/CDCK have made (although I have an opinion on them, but that's irrelevant in this discussion).
I think the problem is communication. Even if Jeff makes the right decisions (I'm stil somewhat convinced that is the case), he honestly does a very bad job at communicating those decisions and the reasons why they were made.
I can't say anything about how Jeff is as a colleague (I don't work with/for him), but as a member of this community, I mean it when I say that he sucks at PR. He might be a hell of a product manager, but if he wants to interface with the users of his product, well, let's just say there is ample room for improvement.
- a meme is not answer
- linking to your own blog posts is not an argument supporting what you say
- written communication doesn't convey body language, intonation, ... Be aware of the medium you use to communicate and its limitations: what you think you're saying might not be what you're actually saying at all
- closing topics/deleting posts just because you disagree with what is said and without giving any explanation at all is rude. If it happens multiple times, you're just abusing your powers.
- enforcing your policy on "civilized discourse" in others, but ignoring that same policy when it suits you is hypocritical and makes you look like a self-important dick.
- telling us we're doing it wrong, when all we do is doing it a bit differently than what you think is the One True Way is being a dick
- not being able to say "I was wrong" when presented with evidence that what you say doesn't make any sense, is childish and doesn't instill much confidence in the decisions you make
I could go on, but I think I made my point.
@sam said:
We don't need a good cop / bad cop thing going on here.
You don't need a good cop/bad cop indeed. You should all be good cops :) We didn't force the good cop/bad cop template on you guys, you've drifted in those roles all by yourselves, as the result of your past communications, decisions, ability to admit being wrong sometimes, ...
If Jeff doesn't want to be a bad cop, he should stop behaving like one.
@sam said:
Jeff is trying to make Discourse better for everyone just as I am and he cares a hell of a lot about mobile performance.
I truly want to believe that, but reading things like
@codinghorror said:
Are we really taking Windows Phone seriously?
doesn't instill much confidence in that assertion.