Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?
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@fbmac
Belgium!
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@blakeyrat said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
I'm really waiting for enough young people to grow up so the debate goes from, "voting online = horribly awful plague criminal awfulness!" to, "it's 20XX already, why the holy shit can't we vote online?"
To be fair, voting online does equal awful plague criminal awfulness. It's way too easy to rig undetectably, and can offer no anti-coercion guarantees.
Obligatory Tom Scott:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_0x6oaDmI
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@another_sam said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
Look at my hat!
Look at my lovely hat!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gux4q3Ee9sk
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@flabdablet said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
@another_sam said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
Look at my hat!
Look at my lovely hat!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gux4q3Ee9skdid I just watch?
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@another_sam Not sure.
Was it this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RALtqFPyvQk
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@flabdablet said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
@another_sam Not sure.
Was it this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RALtqFPyvQkNo. That was awesome. The previous... not so much.
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@fbmac said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
it seems never was arrested as a terrorist before getting elected
Nor was the political environment in that period particularly conducive to the formation of terrorist groups as the US federal government wasn't taken over by a military coup d'état. It's possible to make all sorts of arguments on that front, but it's probably best to park them.
I was more talking about the crookedness and cronyism.
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@flabdablet Blah blah blah blah blah.
There's no rational reason that vote-by-mail is ok but vote-by-internet is not. Except the former has been around longer, so is more accepted by everybody, and the latter is new and scary to the geezers who run government.
The reason it's a bad idea is, to quote Douglas Adams:
- everything that’s already in the world when you’re born is just normal;
- anything that gets invented between then and before you turn thirty is incredibly exciting and creative and with any luck you can make a career out of it;
- anything that gets invented after you’re thirty is against the natural order of things and the beginning of the end of civilization as we know it until it’s been around for about ten years when it gradually turns out to be alright really.
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@lucas1 said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
I would take the fine every single time.
I'd simply spoil the ballot paper, like I've actually done in UK elections.
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@blakeyrat it takes much more work to tamper with mail and paper.
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@fbmac now you're just like the people that will except a document over fax but won't accept is scanned.
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@fbmac said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
it takes much more work to tamper with mail and paper.
That doesn't make online voting UNPOSSIBLE OMG WAVING ARMS IN PANIC! it just means you have to actually make it secure.
Look, considering Fat Ted who volunteers at my local polling place (assuming I had one and wasn't in a vote-by-mail county) could just go through the roster at 6:50 PM and find everybody who hasn't checked in yet and start shoving those ballot boxes full of fraud, I have trouble believing online is so much worse. "But parties both have representatives at polling places!" Well in theory yes, but in reality it's just lonely retired volunteers like Fat Ted and nobody's paying fucking attention. None of the people there give a shit, and half are asleep.
Not to mention the awful effect having to physically walk to a polling place has on voter turn-out. There are entire classes of people who almost never vote because ain't nobody got time for that shit.
Are there reasons to not do online voting? Yes, of course. Are they worse than reasons to not do vote-by-mail? No, I can't imagine how. In fact with some cryptography technology they could be much better. Is society ok with vote-by-mail? Yes, people are fucking fine with it. So what are we waiting for!
The only answer: paranoid Linux users and geezers in office to all die-out and people who grew up with the internet to start running for election. That's it.
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@blakeyrat said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
Not to mention the awful effect having to physically walk to a polling place has on voter turn-out. There are entire classes of people who almost never vote because ain't nobody got time for that shit.
Having elections on work days also hurts voter turnout (it does seem to explain why retirees vote a lot more often than other people in the US). In France, elections happen on Sundays and polling stations are open throughout the day (they're open later in the cities than in the country, though).
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@Khudzlin said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
In France, elections happen on Sundays and polling stations are open throughout the day (they're open later in the cities than in the country, though).
In the UK, elections are always on a Thursday and polling stations are open from 7-8am to 10pm. Plenty of time to get out and vote.
Also, anyone can register for a postal vote
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@another_sam said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
@fbmac said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
I incentives for morons that don't care to vote are a bad idea.
Yes, compulsory voting sucks. However, I happen to think all the alternatives are worse.
Hate that quote, it's stupid.
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@Onyx no, in elections, I wouldn't accept fax. It must be a ballot with paper, and that ballot should be always in the company of representatives of all stakeholders.
and if someone is gonna fraud them, he'll need to fraud thousands of ballots, with thousands of people involved to make it significant.
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@blakeyrat said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
Look, considering Fat Ted who volunteers at my local polling place (assuming I had one and wasn't in a vote-by-mail county) could just go through the roster at 6:50 PM and find everybody who hasn't checked in yet and start shoving those ballot boxes full of fraud, I have trouble believing online is so much worse
Fat ted damage is limited to one voting place. online voting is vulnerable to the server just making up numbers.
Who will you trust to write the software and maintain the server?
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@fbmac said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
Who will you trust to write the software and maintain the server?
Outsource it, like healthcare.gov.
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@blakeyrat said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
There's no rational reason that vote-by-mail is ok but vote-by-internet is not.
Correct. Vote-by-mail offers no anti-coercion guarantees either.
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@blakeyrat said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
in reality it's just lonely retired volunteers like Fat Ted and nobody's paying fucking attention. None of the people there give a shit, and half are asleep.
That might be how you run your elections in your half-assed excuse for a democracy. Here in Australia, we take supervision of polling places a lot more seriously than that.
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@Jaloopa said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
In the UK, elections are always on a Thursday
Saturday here.
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@flabdablet Yeah; you make it a CRIME to not participate.
And our democracy is fully-assed, thank you very much.
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@blakeyrat Arse about, I'll grant you.
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@blakeyrat That's a nice rant about geezers but I wouldn't have been 20 when I read about electronic voting and despite my love of technological solutions and lack of life experience at the time I could see it was a terrible, awful idea. Watch the video @flabdablet posted for you because despite the awkwardness that dude always displays, he actually does a decent job of explaining why electronic voting is hideously retardedly dumb.
You rail against poor quality software harder than most people on this forum, and that's just from developers being lazy and/or ignorant. Imagine how bad software gets when you combine actual malice and then raise the stakes to complete control over nation-states.
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@another_sam How is it worse than vote-by-mail? The question I have which you have not yet answered.
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@PJH said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
I'd simply spoil the ballot paper, like I've actually done in UK elections.
That happens, but for most people the hardest part is just turning up. Once they're there their hard work is done so they go ahead and vote.
Of course voting in the Senate here is difficult enough that about 1/3 of ballots are ruled informal anyway. Here's a tablecloth sized piece of paper. Number every candidate from 1 to 150. Don't miss a number or a candidate and make sure every number is legible.
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@blakeyrat said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
Look, considering Fat Ted who volunteers at my local polling place (assuming I had one and wasn't in a vote-by-mail county) could just go through the roster at 6:50 PM and find everybody who hasn't checked in yet and start shoving those ballot boxes full of fraud, I have trouble believing online is so much worse.
Why bother going through the roster? There's no voter name on the ballot. If Fat Ted has access to ballot papers and the ballot box he can just go ahead and stuff it full of fraud all day regardless of who turns up.
@blakeyrat said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
There are entire classes of people who almost never vote because ain't nobody got time for that shit.
That's because your entire electoral system is shitty. Really shitty.
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@blakeyrat said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
How is it worse than vote-by-mail? The question I have which you have not yet answered.
You think that because you refuse to read. You know, that complaint you make against others all the time? Yeah, that.
Seriously, watch the video. The short answer is that effectively attacking vote-by-mail requires much more effort and many more conspirators. Attacking electronic voting requires just one person. Watch the video.
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@another_sam Yeah well we have enough nukes to turn your great electorial system into brown glass, so watch your mouth.
Then again, turning that shitty continent into brown glass might be an improvement.
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@another_sam said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
Seriously, watch the video.
I'm at work.
@another_sam said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
Watch the video.
I'm at work, fuck you. Plus that guy's face is way too tall.
BTW our shitty electorial system has also successfully kept the government from censoring video games. So likes the nukes, that's another mark in our favor. "Oh I'm Australian, I'm too much a little crying baby to play an R-rated video game! Waaah!"
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@blakeyrat said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
Yeah well we have enough nukes to turn your great electorial system into brown glass
That's not an argument that your electoral system isn't shitty. Or an argument for electronic or online voting.
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@another_sam said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
That's not an argument that your electoral system isn't shitty. Or an argument for electronic or online voting.
We have more monster trucks, too.
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@blakeyrat said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
I'm at work.
Then shut the fuck up until you're in a position to become a little less ignorant.
@blakeyrat said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
I'm at work, fuck you. Plus that guy's face is way too tall.
And his delivery is awkward. Watch the video, it's kind of funny how awkward he is. I watched it at work, it won't hurt you.
@blakeyrat said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
BTW our shitty electorial system has also successfully kept the government from censoring video games.
You mean your courts and their interpretation of your constitution. That has little to do with your shitty electoral system.
@blakeyrat said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
"Oh I'm Australian, I'm too much a little crying baby to play an R-rated video game! Waaah!"
Yes, parents over here are shitty people who want to absolve their reponsibilities, just like parents over there.
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@blakeyrat said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
We have more monster trucks, too.
True and awesome and irrelevant.
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@another_sam We have all the bits of Paris that matter in a single building in Las Vegas.
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@blakeyrat who is "we"?
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@blakeyrat said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
We have all the bits of Paris that matter in a single building in Las Vegas.
True and tacky and irrelevant.
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@another_sam Yeah but you know what isn't tacky?
The Blue Whale in Catoosa, Oklahoma.
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@another_sam said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
That's because your entire electoral system is shitty. Really shitty.
Nah, it actually works well enough for what it is.
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@boomzilla He's still sore over the monster trucks.
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@blakeyrat all countries have monster trucks if you have money to buy one
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@boomzilla said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
Nah, it actually works well enough for what it is.
So what is it then? Because the purpose of electing the most acceptable or desired candidates seems like it should be somewhere near the top of the list of requirements but that's not nearly what your system allows.
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@another_sam the fact that only two parties even have any chance is proof their system can improve.
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@another_sam said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
Of course voting in the Senate here is difficult enough that about 1/3 of ballots are ruled informal anyway. Here's a tablecloth sized piece of paper. Number every candidate from 1 to 150. Don't miss a number or a candidate and make sure every number is legible.
I would have thought most people would go for the "one box above the line" option. I don't, but that's because I'm picky and don't want to let any of the political parties make up my mind for me.
But they have actually fixed that this time around: you can number at least 6 boxes above the line, or at least 12 boxes below the line. Of course everyone who hasn't seen the ads for the new rules, and doesn't read the instructions on the paper, and wants to vote above the line will probably screw it up now.
For me, this is a great change. I don't delve into politics deeply enough to care about one Senate candidate over another within a given party, but I do object to my preferences being distributed according to whatever my first choice party feels like instead of the way I want them. In the past, this has meant I've had to number every box below the line (and I actually stuffed up the numbering last time and had to get a new ballot paper, first time I've ever done that). Now I can just rank the parties in the order that I want, and I don't even have to worry about which order the bottom dozen go in if I don't want to (but I probably will, if there are some that I want to make sure go last).
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@Scarlet_Manuka said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
I would have thought most people would go for the "one box above the line" option.
I also would have thought that. Maybe most do and everybody who tries to vote below the line stuffs it up?
@Scarlet_Manuka said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
I'm picky and don't want to let any of the political parties make up my mind for me
I am the same.
@Scarlet_Manuka said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
But they have actually fixed that this time around
Yes, it was during a discussion on this changed that I read about the huge number of invalid ballots. It's a good change.
@Scarlet_Manuka said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
Of course everyone who hasn't seen the ads for the new rules, and doesn't read the instructions on the paper, and wants to vote above the line will probably screw it up now.
Can't help people who don't want to be helped. I imagine when the time comes there will be large signs warning people that the voting method has changed so I don't think there will be any excuse.
If I had to guess I'd say mostly minor party voters vote below the line and mostly major party voters vote above, in which case I might want most of the above the line votes invalidated.
@Scarlet_Manuka said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
Now I can just rank the parties in the order that I want
Hell yes. I can also feel more confident that I didn't fuck it up and that my vote will count.
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@another_sam said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
@Scarlet_Manuka said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
I would have thought most people would go for the "one box above the line" option.
I also would have thought that. Maybe most do and everybody who tries to vote below the line stuffs it up?
Perhaps most people think "Most people probably just vote above the line, but I'm too picky for that so I'll vote below the line..."
I imagine when the time comes there will be large signs warning people that the voting method has changed so I don't think there will be any excuse.
Ah yes, because we all know that people are in the habit of paying attention to the signs they see all around them.
Not that I'm criticising. The AEC does seem to be doing everything reasonable within its power to get the word out; I'm sure some people will still just go and do it the way they've done it for 40 years, but the responsibility for that has to be on them.
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@another_sam said in Yougov again. Have you voted in every general election?:
So what is it then? Because the purpose of electing the most acceptable or desired candidates seems like it should be somewhere near the top of the list of requirements but that's not nearly what your system allows.
Whiners like to whine that democracy is broken when the people they like don't get elected. No one can agree on what's best or even acceptable. No technical "fix" to voting is going to change that.
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@boomzilla great majority of people I talk to here say all candidates suck. it's more complicated than someone I wanted not winning.
I too don't have any candidate I trust.